Offering room with all included isn't part of the payment for care?

I once made a comment on the phone, after being told that the cost of that facility was 6000/month, that it should not cost more than the amount she gets monthly from her ss check. Sorry, but I think, and I know others feel this way also, that the cost is ridiculous! There I go venting again.

You are not taking them into your home, as you state. You are hiring them. Based on your poor experience, don't you think the cheap route isn't working? I'm trying to be understanding about your frustration and probable exhaustion, but in your posts you don't sound like a person I would work for at any wage. Caregiving is hard. It's hard for family and its hard for employees.

Personally, if I found an aide had stolen from my mother and the agency did nothing about it, I would file a police report, period. I have heard from a number of different people in our area with different agencies who have had this happen to. If the agencies do not feel responsible for their employee, then most definitely I would file a police report.

2nd thought - I googled and believe Greece is the country Anonymous is posting from. And the rest of that entire conversation, I will not enter.

To wouldyoustayorgo....GO! GO! Your sister is right. You are being abused.

I’m glad you clarified your situation.

Am I in the wrong profession?
I have been taking care of a lady in her late 80's for 2 years now. I was supposed to get room and board and 100.00 per month. I was told she had mild dementia and her 60 plus-year-old son would be staying for a short time. I would be able to do the things I needed to do without worry because she was able to take care of most of her own needs. She could answer the phone so I knew when I was out I could call and check on her and though she wouldn't know who I was she would at least be able to answer and let me know she was ok. The son had control of her debit card so if I needed anything he would be doing the purchasing. He would take care of all of his own needs and I hers.
For the first few weeks, everything went ok. I learned she was a little worse off mentally than I was originally led to believe but since the son was there I didn't really have a problem, yet.
I did all of the cooking and cleaning and was expected to make parties for her. These parties have been traditional for her, so they were expected. I didn't know this in advance either. I was expected to do everything for her. Whatever would arise. Bathe, dress if needed, cook, wash, do her hair, medicate, and anything else she needed. Take her out to dinner and anywhere else she wanted to go.
Taking care of her was not to bad in the beginning. Her son, however, became a nightmare. He would eat every time I cooked a meal but never cleaned up after himself. He spent every day sitting in his chair in the den either watching t.v. or on his computer. After about 5 months I started putting his dishes on the end of the cabinet and only cleaned up after her and I. This made him mad, but I didn't care. Finally, he got a job out of state and left for a couple of months. That is when I learned exactly what was in store for me.
I all of the sudden had to start taking her everywhere I go because her staying by herself is no longer an option. She can't answer the phone because she can't remember which button to push even though I have it marked on the phone. I am expected to be with her 24/7 too. I have no days off and have not had a vacation either. I broke my arm on St. Patricks day 2017 and was yelled at because I was trying to kill a wasp when it happened. I was told that is why they pay a service to spray so I don't need to try and kill a wasp. I had to have surgery and pins and plate inserted and couldn't even get someone to come change her bed for me. So the day after surgery I was changing sheets on a queen sized bed alone. Finally, I had to ask a close friend of mine to come help me. They didn't say no but they didn't offer her anything for her time either.
She has been in the hospital a few times in the past 8 months. I also stayed in the hospital with her and took care of her there as well. The only things the nurses/aides did were what I was not allowed to do. Everything else was done by me. About 6 months ago the doctor put her on oxygen at home. Now my life has really become chaotic. I now have to carry oxygen tanks everywhere I go and she now has to be in a wheelchair when she has any distance to travel. She refuses to use her walker so I am used as a human walker. I carry a walker, wheelchair, oxygen tanks big ones and portable ones, changes of clothes for her, Items to clean her with for whenever she has an accident, etc, etc. Imagine everything you had to do for your child only now it's for a grown-up child.
She has lost so much of her mental abilities in the past 6 months it's really bad. She has fallen a few times in the past 4 months too.
I do everything in this household and get no recognition for anything.
Since she has been put on oxygen I have to check on her every 15 to 20 minutes all day and night. I get no quality rest ever.
She was put on hospice and they decided I needed a break. Her family was told to get someone to relieve me for a week. Their idea of that is 5 days, 8 hours a day for one week.
While we were together I asked for a 100.00 raise. He blew a gasket. How dare I ask for a raise when I do nothing but make sure she doesn't leave the stove on or go out in the middle of the night to get her paper.
Wow, I told him he needs to come and stay a full month with her alone and see exactly what needs to be done. I really don't think that will ever happen. In fact, I know it won't. Needless to say, I didn't get the 100.00.
My sister told me to check and see just what my job is worth and I figured after looking into the subject at minimum wage 24/7 I should be making somewhere in the neighborhood of 8,100.00 per month. I don't think I was asking too much. What do you all think?
I could keep going but I won't. Curious to hear any feedback.

Cwillie, don't forget that those fees also cover insurance :-) ...for liabilities

You must look at it hourly. A live in care giver should get paid about $10 to $20 an hour. At $20 that's $480 a day. They must be paid for the full 24 hours. So you can add up the cost of the room and board and the salary you want to pay and it does not come close to what they should be paid. If room and board were $1200 a month, and salary $1300 a month that's $2500 a month. What they should get is close to approximately $6000 to $20,000 a month. Just because a person deserves pay for 24hrs, our human nature is to want to give them less hourly when the deserve more. That's why I chose AL for my mom because it's cheaper than home care. If I did use home care I would want to have the best and pay well.

My husband had a full-time live-in housekeeper when we got married. She is still employed with us. She has her own small apartment attached to the house and all of her utilities including cable and wifi are paid with our household costs. She is free to eat any meals with us as she desires or she can cook in her own apartment. She is at home in the afternoon when his 3 grandsons come home from school. They are twin boys age 8 and a 12-yr old. They do not require much care. She cooks, cleans, does laundry, ironing, etc.  She does household errands and uses one of the family cars for those errands. She also drives the boys to activities at times. I love to cook and do so regularly. Her salary was not decreased because I cook part of the time. In addition to apartment, food, and utilities she is paid a weekly salary of $700.00 per week. We take care of withholding taxes, paying employer portion of social security and her health insurance. She participates in a 401k type retirement set up by a local tax accountant for domestic workers in the area. She has Saturday and Sunday off and gets 2 weeks paid vacation. She also gets holidays off. Her salary and benefits are in-line to those paid in the area. If she is called upon for anything above regular hours or unusual circumstances, she is compensated accordingly. She has been working for my husband for about 4 years without problem.

Because of the unique nature of caring for an elderly person their salaries tend to be higher. No one in this area pays minimum wage for any type of caregiving. I do not live in a high income urban area. Two times minimum wage does not cover what is paid directly or indirectly to an elderly caregiver of any type. Daycare in our area is approximately $400.00 per week; and this is in line with state daycare voucher payments. I don't think what you are being asked to pay for someone to care for your loved one is out of line. As another poster stated $12,000 per month is not out of line for 24 hour coverage. Caring for an elderly loved one is a big responsibility. 

I'm sorry your caregivers haven't been trustworthy.

One thing you keep repeating is about an agency "that charged us twice the amount charged by a caregiver (but pays them way less than that)." That's the way all all agencies work, whether it is in caregiving or cleaning or even increasingly office staff and factory workers, the amount you pay has nothing to do with the hourly wages of the worker. From the difference the agency pays office staff - receptionists, payroll, schedulers, cleaners - as well as rent, water and electric and hopes to make a profit to pay themselves too.

Yeah. I just caught the last one stealing. My MIL complained that she had a wallet with money on her nightstand and the wallet was gone. I searched on the floor and found it under the bed, but some of the money was gone. So we decided to leave the wallet under the bed and see what she would do. And I filmed it. Next day, I caught her. She looked around to check if we weren't seeing, took the wallet and put it straight in her pocket. When she left, I confronted her, told her I had it on camera and would go to the police if she didn't return it, so she admitted and returned it later.
She works for that international agency (it's in USA too) that charged us twice the amount charged by a caregiver (but pays them way less than that). That agency I called some weeks ago to complain about some jewellery being stolen and they dismissed it with a: "never happened before" - so why do they charge so much if they don't do a good job and it's not even safer??
Here's their disclaimer: "...provides award-winning in-home care for seniors and other adults in need of assistance with daily activities. Our highly trained and dedicated caregivers can help your loved one stay in their home for as long as safely possible—a dream come true for many elders" - yeah, right!

She was working privately for us, not through the agency, so we were paying her the fair price, what caregivers ask per hour, and still doing a lousy job (always late, never cleaned, never stayed the whole hour, and I had to make the breakfast and prepare her medication).
She apologized for stealing. But she only did it because she was caught, not because she was sorry.
They all think elderly are sick minded people, who have no idea what they have or where they put their things, so they rip them off. Disgusting.
I fired her so I had to do it myself again. My MIL is in the home care facility now. I feel sad and guilty for putting her there, but this hiring caregivers has been a nightmare and although she's much better there than being at home with these thieves, I'll keep my eyes open.
Enough!!

Jvk252630: watch her closely. Install cameras. Use old smartphones as CCTV if you can't afford nanny cams or other system. Don't let your family member isolate, go visit him/her often. Don't let the caregiver feel too much on the loose, take over the space and her life.
Her previous caregiver isolated her, turned all her close friends and family members against each other and her, so she was "the only one who took care of her" and in the end stole all of her money. We even suspect that she may have poisoned her to get rid of her faster.
What I've learned from this: at home caregiving is a big risk, no matter how much you pay, how nice they are, or how business-like they sound.
Good luck

We have run into problem of live-in caregiver also a family member is being paid more than fair wages per month and no cost to care giver for anything in regards to rent , food , bills in regards to the home she lives and gives care in. We have found that she has begun to isolate our parent ( care receiver) from all family members. Also she has moved in her adult children, there children and pets. Our parent is taking care of all bills which have substantially gone higher. None of the extra people contribute to care or bills. Caregiver has also let house go, it is not cared for like when both parents were able. Not even close they have actually been cited by city for outside area being in disarray and not up to neighborhood standard or code. We also are at our wits end very sorry for what you are having to deal with but we do understand what is too much and where do you draw the line.

I Pay my Mom's livin caregiver 1190. a week. my mom is totally bedridden and incontinent. Also mean as a snake. Her care giver is an Angel she takes care of a 3 bedroom 2 1/2 bedroom house and Mom's dog. She is worth every penny. You should price out nursing homes. They wanted to charge her 9000.00 a month. We are getting off way cheaper but is more stress for me doing all the shopping and bills and maintaining her 3/4 acre lot.

Yes, tacy022, like many others mentioned "what they are required to do?" + regulations, should influence the price, but it doesn't exactly. They ask more or less the same (501-1000/week) no matter what they're supposed to do or what they actually offer us or if there's benefits. It can go higher than 2MW or a bit (just a bit) lower and "negotiable" isn't exactly negotiable, is more of a way of not telling the price so you call them first.

greataupair.com/search/hire.cfm/careType/seniorcare
*Filter by: "seeking=Live-In and Nationality=American, or else you'll have people offering to work for 200 because they live in Nepal or Philippines...
They ask the same range and some are available 7 days, others 5, others 6, some make more, some make less...
On that site, you can also search for nannies, and although some ask the same 501-1000, many ask a lot less, and a lot say it's negotiable too.

But unless a CG can prescribe medication and cure diseases like a doctor does, I don't see how 4000 month in net salary is being that underpaid. Apparently a nurse earns less in net salary ($3651.66. according to: http://www.registerednursern.com/how-much-money-does-a-registered-nurse-make-per-month/) and has higher skills, works shifts, attends more people per hour and is expected to be available too.
And adding "give medication" to the list of duties doesn't make them doctors. It's just like give them water at specific times of the day...

A Live in nanny is the most similar job I can find:
They have to have CPR training and be alert for choking, falling, sickness, and sometimes take care of sick children with cancer, heart problems, etc; babies do give a lot of work;: they poop and pee frequently, they scream and cry when they need something; they eat special food, they have schedules, they don't shower, they have to be carried and have to be monitored constantly, etc. Also, it's not only babies they take care of, they do take care of toddlers and teenagers, and have to drive them to and pick them up from school, help them with homework (+skills), care for their discipline and manners (spoiled brats consume your energy), etc etc, some have special medication, and you live there too and you're expected to be ready for anything on your waking hours and you have 2 days off.

"Technically, (...) live-in and live-out nannies should receive the same rate. Because you're paying for the same services, the pay should not be different -- but it often is.
In reality, many live-in nannies generally make slightly less per hour than a live-out nanny, (...)That's because they live in your home, so you absorb the costs of room and board."

the whole article: care.com/c/stories/4313/what-does-a-live-in-nanny-cost

Here's a future CG asking what to ask for. Everyone says different things, just like in this thread. Room and Board lowers the price, then some tell her to charge per hour, others go for no sleep nights, others base it on what they made in care centers, some suggest a lot, some suggest less, etc etc. care.com/c/questions/3481/what-should-i-be-paid-for-a-live-in-caregiver

I guess no one knows, but I think CGs are asking what they want based on an idealized (nightmare life) service even when we tell them that it won't happen and we're also offering room+board (salary=net income). We can't afford and we can't tell if we're hiring a good professional just based on the price.
True, scammers or people that only want a place to live ask less - I made that mistake, and learned that if they say that's why they're doing this - RUN

Anyway, I wasn't thinking about fighting the system when asked this and fortunately I won't have to bother with it now. When I saw the prices asked and what they were offering and what I was getting no matter what (I remind you that her first caregiver, before she needed me made 1MW for less working hours (10/week instead of the 40/week), + another 2MW for vacations, and this didn't stop her from conning my MIL and stealing all her money; that the agency charges me the double asked for a CG to come 2 hours a day, and the job is very lousy and jewels went missing; that the live in earned 1MW net income for morning and bedtime routine, and yes, be available during waking hours, slept 10/night, was out all day and jewels went missing - I still can't tell who did it, she and the agency ladies overlapped)...I decided that someone at home wasn't the solution.
No matter how high the price is, they're not nurses or doctors. If something happens they can't do much, but take her to an hospital or doctor. In a home care, she has that included. For less the price and without having to pay her house bills and theirs.
Unfortunately, home care facilities were depressing me. And finding home care facilities was the same as finding a CG: For the same high price the quality differs, and usually high price isn't equal to good place. For some reason, by chance, when I wasn't looking anymore, I found this one that is great! Just what we were looking for, and they for some reason (they say it's a special price), ask the same for a double room super nice, (I was asked the same for triple bedrooms in very depressing places).
Business. One day it will change. I'm sure when old people (us, in the future) have more options, the prices will low.

Because being on site is equivalent to always being on-call.

The caregiver is being paid the same hours as a live in nanny and a nanny earns less than what a live in cg asks for for the same hours, responsibilities and availability.

You also can't count per hour when you're hiring for full time.
A cleaning lady may ask for 30/h to come and clean for 2 or 3 hours a couple of days in a week, but if you hire her to come the whole morning everyday you won't pay by the hour, but a "salary". Like the agency charges different prices per hour, depending on if you hire their services for 2 hours a day or 7 hours a day. The price per hour can be 20, but for the maximum service (24/7) they charge 12 per hour.

The same logic applies to live in nannies, as I said, they have to work the same hours, with the same responsibilities, with similar skills (emergencies, cooking, driving, and reading etc) and same expected availability.

"according to 2015 INA Nanny Salary & Benefits Survey, the average hourly rate is $18.66 USD per hour". However, "live-in nannies make $652 per week". That's not 18,66x24x7 if it was, you'd pay a live-in nanny $13 435/month. That's almost 4x  the average wage in US, which is 849/week (3400/month).

(Edit: And by the way, live-out nannies make more ($705 per week) then live ins).

That's why benefits also count - and should - to reduce the value of that salary, since it's part of the "package"

2 x MW has been the focus of these posts. However, just as much of a question is HOW MANY HOURS PER WEEK is the caregiver being paid? She's on duty morning through bedtime? 8am - 10pm? 5 days a week? 6 days a week? 7 days a week? That could add up to almost 100 hours per week. Is she paid time-and-a-half for all hours over 40?

While 2x MW seems reasonable, if you're paying her for 40 hours per week, she seems underpaid. If you're paying her for 100 hours (with time-and-a-half over 40 hours), she seems overpaid.

I will CTTN5. Don't think I haven't been thinking about it.

If I write it, I'll do it in my country and internet for everyone to think about it.

There's too many issues, to many human rights issues being violated when it comes to elderly. From being treated as children, lunatics and deaf, to taking advantage of their retirement money asking for all of it for whatever in return, home care facilities ask huge amounts for a place to dump them in a shitty hole watching TV and being treated as idiots with activities similar to the ones in kindergartens, CG agencies charge whatever they want to clients but underpay their CG (they charge 3x more what a CG ask on the market, and pay them half of what they ask, with taxes on their own); CGs are following the trend, and as countrymouse said, there are many people out there becoming a CG because they can't do anything else, and they all ask a lot, because it's a business based mostly on a no one to turn to demand: it's a either you pay me what I ask, or you're screwed.

And that's why we're here

If you are a broadcast journalist, maybe you could do an expository piece on elder caregiving in your country? I'm sorry that you so misunderstood so many on this site. There are so many wonderful posters here!

Because after telling you she was accepted, someone else - 2 or 3 more members - came here to call me a troll and other names and assumptions.

Then countrymouse answered and I answered back:

My opinion after Countrymouse, cdnreader and few who answered with sobriety and numbers and by comparing it with nannies, is the same I had: That IT DEPENDS. On many things.

I can ask for less, but unfortunately CG is overrated in the market, not because of the effort and availability needed - nannies work hard too and are there 24/7 -, or the quality provided - same price different/bad job - , or the quantity of tasks - I asked for half the job but the price was the same as a full Care.
And that yes, housing is a benefit that is quantifiable, it is used for nannies but not for CG, it could be taken in consideration but it won't.

Everyone should be paid more in general. Me, you, caregivers, nannies, but it is how it is, and being how it is, and being this a human right's issue, we as a society SHOULD be more reasonable too when ask for a wage without taking in consideration the whole thing. If we could all pay a CG a million, then ok, fine. I wouldn't care and this forum wouldn't even exist. We would all have CG and home facilities.

And quality isn't a separate issue, Meallen. Is part of the issue. Because if the market said 2xMW+Housing=QUALITY, then we would know that less than that meant crappy service. But it isn't the case. 2MW+Housing could be a very reasonable price IF you could turn your back and know your family would be absolutely well taken care of.

Or 2MW+Housing=Full Job.
But if my list of tasks, the one I expected from the live in, is less, it's half the work another caregiver is asked for: she didn't have to clean, cook, shop, take her out, and be on her face 24/7, she could take time off, why would you or the market demand that I pay this woman the same you pay to a woman who also has to do what I did?
The amount of work asked was way less, why would I pay the same? Just because?

And again if paying a lot meant quality, than I should have quality when I pay the agency to come here. And I don't have.

What I meant Meallen is that the price asked does not reflect the service provided - neither for quality, neither for quantity. So it's a very subjective value. The availability is taken in consideration for a CG and a Nanny and prices are different.

My question was if housing couldn't be part of the payment which would reduce the 2MW to 1MW and a bit more (fine), and I gave mathematical examples as to why that made a big difference. I still believe having 100% 2MW in the end of the month is more than lots of high skilled jobs offer.

I hope I made myself clear now - I'm tired of explaining and be bashed. I'm happy that my problem is solved. I'll never have to come back here. I have two more weeks with her, but for sure I will not turn to this community for support, because very few people can talk.

I hope you're all very happy too now or/and in the future. I'm with all of you in this.
I also hope after this post you think and read before bashing me or my BF more.

Thank you.

I asked why you were still on about this AFTER she had been accepted. I saw your post before I made mine.
If this is what you wanted: "
And the list, as I said before, was hygiene, morning routine (give her meds and help her making her breakfast) and help her go to bed at night. Sure, be around if needed, that's why I was hiring a live in and no longer the home care support agency." Why were you expecting them to mop the floor?
" they use the same dirty water to mop the floor for days - fortunately I noticed the bucket stored full of dirty water, and she would keep using it if I haven't threw that away -, they use the face towel to clean her intimate parts - they use whatever they get -, don't dust or vacuum and barely and rarely clean, and don't iron, although that's all part of their job,"

The lack of care for the patient is a separate issue.

What you do want us to say: providing housing for a person you want to live-in so she can be on call 24 hours day is an extra, above and beyond what you should have to do?

oh Meallen, spare me.
I am discussing my topics. I said no one is well paid. I explained 3 times why my math makes 1xMW+housing better than simply 2xMW-housing, and more accessible to families. And my MIL was NOW accepted in a home care facility - the answer came AFTER I opened this thread - as I SAID too :

carenightmare
a day ago
"(...) Now we're waiting for a very decent home care facility to answer if they can accept her. I'm really praying they do, because for the same amount we've been asked for crappy holes, she could be in a really decent place, where they are treated as adults, not children, entertained, stay active and be in very clean and comfortable spaces. Let's see what happens."

carenightmare
a day ago
"And I'm sharing good news, since you prefer to talk about my personal life: She was accepted in the decent home care. She'll be very happy there and so will I knowing she will be taken good care of and not stolen and conned by scammers who ask whatever they want without guaranteeing quality"

I have excellent google -fu. And as I said, different sources treat the data differently, so there is no straight forward list. One gave Bulgaria, the other Slovenia as 16th.

I assume you don't really want to discuss the topics you brought up, as you haven't addressed them directly, only reiterate what you already said. I am curious as to why you said 1) caregivers aren't paid enough and 2) they should be satisfied with what I want to give. Since your boyfriend's mother is now in care, why does it matter what you want to pay a live-in care giver?feel is reasonable.

Exactly, quantifiable.
And the list, as I said before, was hygiene, morning routine (give her meds and help her making her breakfast) and help her go to bed at night. Sure, be around if needed, that's why I was hiring a live in and no longer the home care support agency.

Another thing I said was that caregivers ask about the same amount no matter what the list/tasks are, and no matter what quality they offer back.

As I said, the agency asks twice the amount a private caregiver asks for, and the service is not great. They leave gloves and clothes everywhere, on top of my toiletries, on cabinet's doors, they use the same dirty water to mop the floor for days - fortunately I noticed the bucket stored full of dirty water, and she would keep using it if I haven't threw that away -, they use the face towel to clean her intimate parts - they use whatever they get -, don't dust or vacuum and barely and rarely clean, and don't iron, although that's all part of their job, and what I'm paying for, also some jewels went missing since they came, and the agency dismissed it ("never happened before").

While the live in caregiver, she said she had a reference letter that the no name previous family wrote. Her tasks here were MIL's hygiene, breakfast, meds, and be around - reason to be a live in and not a live out. We paid her house+bills+1MW.
I cooked, cleaned the house, shopped and took MIL to doctors and out. And she was never home. Only to eat and sleep.

I'm doing what she was paid to do now again with the agency ladies.
I pay a bit less in salary (the hour rate decreases with the amount of hours hired) than I was paying that live in, and I don't have to worry about running home to cook for 3, I have my privacy back, we're in family, our safety guaranteed, and spend less with variable expenses: less food, less coffee, less washing machines on, no dishwasher on every night, less lights on, less water...etc.

And this "Market shmarket - we simply don't live in a world where people are paid according to the human worth of their work. But if you have the power to pay somebody the compliment of getting closer to it, good." Is totally true. I said we're all underpaid. But to me, having 100% 1MW whatever the amount is to spend in the end of the month, is more than earning 2xMW but only end up with a third of that.

(Thought I'd found the right emoji but on closer inspection it's a person with a raging fever and a thermometer which is not what I meant at all - why isn't there one for blushing? Anyway...)

Aw shucks, thank you! I would send a hug back but you haven't enabled them?

I LOVE you Country Mouse!

.

"Having a free house+bills is a huge benefit to any worker"

Well, yes. But my point was not that this is a huge benefit, but that it is a *quantifiable* benefit. So quantify it.

And the other point was that it might be best to list the skills you want and price them, too. Rather than drawing parallels with people you wouldn't seriously want in your home.

I worked on an assignment to find a fully-qualified librarian. Post graduate qualifications; long, long training; painstaking and critical work. £18K, the organisation was offering, and reckoned it generous. And the really appalling thing is that they were being generous, as I was horrified to discover.

Four years' training for physiotherapy, plus one year post qualification probation. That young woman now works in marketing for an international fmcg group and earns four times as much as she would if she was still helping people get well and pain free.

Specialist wound care nurses make a lot more selling supplies for otc pharma companies than they do tending pressure sores.

Market shmarket - we simply don't live in a world where people are paid according to the human worth of their work. But if you have the power to pay somebody the compliment of getting closer to it, good.

Thank you for a sober, neutral, to the point, complete answer.
Yes, that's how I think it is: salary+benefits

And yes, a contract in Europe already includes social security (health and protection in absence of a job - for being sick, pregnant, maternity care, or being fired) and IRS. So, when we earn MW we have to pay a percentage of those taxes and the employer pays the rest of it.

And of course, only variable expenses count. If she downloads the whole internet makes no difference, if she uses the washing machine three times a day or takes 1hour shower, that hurts. In my case, whoever we hired (now we won't need), could use everything with no restrictions.

My point was that:
Having a free house+bills is a huge benefit to any worker, since his salary will not be used at all for the biggest part of any worker's budget (housing) it will be only "pocket money".
MW is not enough in many countries (US, apparently, as Meallen said, and mine), because it's not enough to rent a house and pay the house bills and food. But if you don't have to pay for that, than your MW will be completely for your personal expenses (family care, school, hairdresser, clothes, whatever it is, it's irrelevant, personal and different or not to everyone).

So, if I have a great job and make 2xMW, and let's suppose MW=3 000, than I get 6 000
In the end, I pay for my house (suppose it's 3000) and bills (1000) and I'm left with 2 000.
On the other hand, if I have a job where I get MW, 3 000, but I have house food and everything I need there at no cost - I can eat whatever whenever I want, I have free internet, I can take a hundred showers per day, I can wash my laundry in the machine, and I don't pay for anything, than in the end, I'm left with 3 000.

(Both minus taxes and social security which are percentages that get higher as the salary is higher too, so it's proportional)

So, my point WAS that offering only 1xMW, and not 2xMW (as asked by many caregivers here and there), with all house, house bills and food paid, doesn't seem unfair to me nor a bad deal. This person makes more in the end of the month, than the other guy in the example above who earns twice this salary.

About the expected availability and the amount of work, I know it's a hard job, and whoever mentioned that is right, but in the end of the month, the money left justifies that. It's better than earning twice that amount but paying for house.

That WAS my point.
And yes, I wanted to know your opinion and the reasons presented for that benefit not being taken in consideration if that is 3 times more than 2xMW-house.

That way would be fair for the caregiver and better for anyone who HAS TO get help to take care of a natural inevitable situation: being old.
Families have to pay rent, bills, and that salary. Many - really a lot of people - cannot afford it. Many families cannot afford 1MW+house and doctors, much less if they ask twice that amount.

And that's a universal issue: the way we see aging and our elders, and that's the way market and people who follow it without regard for families are making us see our loved ones when they age: a burden. A financial and physical burden, because we, the majority, cannot afford to get help. If we did, we wouldn't think that taking care of an old person would be horrible, which now is justifying this expensiveness.
I know the market decides a lot, but the market is not human nor human rights directed. It's pure business. And this is a human right.

And that WAS my other point, not so important for the "can I offer house as part of the payment": and yes, political, activist, but a wake up call too to any caregiver out there to please be a little more reasonable when asking for 2xMW+Housing because that's making (as in my example) 6 000 clean/month.

The state should interfere? My opinion is yes. Here we may diverge a lot, because in Europe we (still) do believe in social security - not all -, US (still) believes in private care - not all. But that's irrelevant for this discussion now.

Thank you a lot countrymouse.

Just to save me from going cross-eyed - where did you find a straightforward list of EU countries ranked by minimum wage? I'd love to see one!

Though given that Sweden, Denmark and Italy apparently don't have a statutory minimum (neither do Norway or Switzerland, though they're not actually in the EU) I'm now less sure it's any reflection of good working conditions anyway.