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They have not given me receipts etc... Just shows $823.00 for clothes Another $423.00 clothes Today $774.00 for a wheelchair, baby dolls and clothes again
My first though is that's a really inexpensive wheelchair, and some pretty pricey clothes! What is their explanation - how often are you in contact with the NH? Are you having regular care conferences, either in person or virtual? Maybe you should just keep a smaller amount in the trust account and transfer in funds as needed, that way they would need to contact you for any major purchases.
Actually your Mother is allowed to spend. You as POA are to act as she wants, as she would act to the best of your knowledge were she competent. If your mother is NOT competent then you should be managing all money and she should not have ATM card, charge or credit or debit cards, access to accounts at all. She could be given a spending account all her own. According to her assets and remembering her money must last, you can refill this account on a basis. My brother and I agreed, when he was diagnosed with Lewy's dementia that I would be POA and Trustee of Trust, would handle all bills, would provide him a monthly accounting of assets in and costs outgoing, and that he would have his own personal spending account so he could shop for items he wanted. Either your Mom is competent to act on her own in these purchases or she is not competent. If the latter, she shouldn't have the means. If you are financial POA I am not certain why the Nursing Home is in charge of the spending, and without receipts this all sounds FISHY in the extreme to me.
I agree that FISHY is the right word Alva. I had to buy my mom specialty clothes to accommodate her wheelchair and the lift - several each open backed nightgowns, vests, tops and pants - and although in my opinion it was all way over priced it never came near that amount of money. I'd be wondering what the heck are they buying, and where is it all going that it needs replacing so often?
When I had guardianship and poa for my grandmother I made copies of all receipts for clothes and labeled every price as to what it was. Blue xl sweatshirt, bras, undies etc. I would demand that nursing home do the same thing. Especially if you are not purchasing the items. Makes inventory keeping at lot easier as you know what she has and what she might need. Again demand accountability
You go immediately and ask for the receipts. Now. Give them a deadline. Then contact ombudsman's office if deadline not met. For every cent they take out of the account, there should be a receipt. I can't imagine that she needs that many clothes. Wheelchair, ok, if she doesn't have one - but I would find out why she had to buy her own - maybe a specialty type.
I would also send someone to find out how many clothes are in her room - do numbers match up compared to receipts? There is a huge issue with clothes being lost at facilities. All of her things need labels. Are you close enough to buy what she needs and tell them no more clothes out of the trust? If so, I'd do that.
I'm unclear how the nursing home has access to her trust account in the first place. If you have the POA, then they should be consulting you before making purchases on her behalf, and only do as you direct. It would be different if there were a small account for sundries (toothpaste, diapers if necessary, etc.) but why are they out buying clothes? Is the wheelchair rented?
I would not allow them access to any significant unrestricted funds and would demand receipts immediately.
That’s not how it works lol. If a crime was committed you don’t need to waste money on an attorney. You report it to the police and the DAs office takes over if they decide to prosecute
Looks like they are trying to spend her stimulus checks which is not their right. Does Mom have Dementia? If yes, they should be doing nothing without your signature. If she is in her right mind, she needed to sign off. A wheelchair Medicare may have paid for. They must supply receipts. They must keep good records. Read this
How do you figure they are trying th spend her stimulus check? The OP never said the nursing home is moms rep payee, that money may not have gone through the nursing home. They have spent a lot more than the $1200 stimulus check too....
Is mom competent? What trust fund do they have access to?
Generally someone *can* have an account with the NH, for spending, but it is NOT required. If this is the "trust" you are referring to, don't put any funds in it. If mom asks for something or needs something, she or they can request it and you can buy it with her funds.
If mom complains about not having money of her own, perhaps tell her that it isn't safe in the account and remind her that ANYTHING she wants, she can have, she just has to ask you to get it.
If this is some other trust fund, why do they have access to it?
When living in a nursing home and receiving Medicaid to help pay for the nursing home, the resident can’t have more than $2000 in assets. They receive $60 a month from the state so for some residents this adds up if never spent and they will lose their Medicaid and then have to discharge somewhere else. If the nursing home sees that they are going over the $2000 they recognize some of that money has to be spent down and quickly. I’m not sure what state she is in or if your mom has capacity to make decisions. That would dictate who and how the spending is done.
Hi, I would write a letter (state only the facts, and minimum) and have it notorized, and have a witness deliver it in person, and obtain a signature. Explain to them that there can be NO spending unless it is approved by you in advance, under the grounds that you have to legally maintain a financial record of that account, and can under no circumstances be left out of the loop in a legally binding financial situation that you are responsible for. I'm not an attorney, but am a small business owner, and money is money. The only possible issue you are going to likely run into here is finding out that there's some loophole that allows these people to access your mom's money and spend it freely as long as they say it's necessary for her care and comfort. You can verify the cost of most things, question things that appear to be out of line etc, but that's also a slippery slope because you yourself don't want to end up in a position where you are questioning and fighting every little thing your mom needs for her comfort and peace, and here's why....... When mom's no longer here, none of this will matter to you. A trust fund of a million dollars coming your way, or a negative balance thanks to the nursing homes frivolous spending, the only thing that is going to matter is the way you feel. If you are like me, you'll only be thinking about how the world all of a sudden feels different, and the things you once thought to be important are now insignificant. You'll spend a lot of time coming to terms with it, and trying to figure out if you did everything right for mom, so you can say you are at peace with the situation because you DID do everything in the best way possible. Hard to imagine, but even the value of money changes when your mom leaves this world. I guess what I'm saying is, do the best you can to resolve the situation, but proceed with caution and make sure you choose your battles carefully and avoid adding any new scars to your soul. Life is hard enough when we deal with these stages of our lives, and the outcomes depend on how we choose and win our battles......Best of luck
Wooooah why do they have access to her account??? Get them off of it or close that account. You should be given monthly bills. My dad had monthly itemized bills sent. He had a small personal account but dont keep much in that. He couldn't walk to a store to spend that on anything. I never saw a store there. I think at one time he had 60 in it, and they said they were buying him things. So we stopped that and I would only put 15 dollars in it for hair cuts. Right before the hair cut. No one needs 800 in clothes! No way. Is she going to a grand ball? ??? Is that for the year? We bought my dad clothes and they kept taking off with them. They said they have a big pile of clothes somewhere, and they dress the residents from that. He couldn't even keep socks in his room. They would be gone the next day but he was dressed. We gave up bc everything would be gone out of his drawers. Close that account or put the going rate for a haircut right before the appointment. You make the appointment. Thats it. You want a receipt for that too. I would demand receipts for every single item. You can buy her dolls. They dont need to. I would want to see where they are buying the dolls from. Do they have a store there? At the nursing homes I worked at they had several wheel chairs that were parked in a corner, and you would use those for residents. Now with covid I dont know if they want individual ones for each resident. But I'd want to see that too. See if its in her room since she/you paid for it. It can't be down the hall or someone else using it. Has to be in her room with her name on it. No one else using it. No way she needs that many clothes. Unless thats for a year and I still dont buy that.. Shut that down! If she needs something they can call you. You'll get it. I would go to the home and make sure she has her dolls in her room. And the 800 dollars in clothes. The briefs and bed protectors should be coming out of the monthly 10k for room/board. Its included unless your at some exclusive place. Tell them you will take care of it. Shut that down now. I dont buy that. Most have clothes from home, and that is good enough. They might need socks or the occasional bra but I cant see that. Shut that down today. Are you in the same state? I know when my dad had money in account it would get spent but my dad was a diabetics mostly non verbal. He wouldn't say lets go to the store. So we stopped that. We took him magazines and items. Funny those were always in his room. If they balk at you closing it too bad. Just do it.
My experience with a nursing home has been very bad. Having my wife get covid in a upscale one in NYS. were she caught covid with 15,000 other seniors whom died. T would take her out of their as soon as possible and bring her home were you can get a aid to take care of her. You have to remember these facilities care about profits only. I am very sorry I ever put her at this facility.
Red flags are flying high in your case.those red flags are screaming in my face. From my experience I would be running to a lawyer and have him read them there is probably a paragraph giving them permission to spend money as they want. She should have enough clothes in her closet that you can take to her take five outfits and night wear. The next time or week you visit swap out the clothes. Be sure to use a permanent marker and put her name on everything .this way you can keep and eye on them you will know what is missing. A lot of clothes are lost in the laundry..they shouldn't need to buy clothes and other things . Take papers either read every word or take to a lawyer for advise of how to stop the nursing home from spending her money. Since you are her POA you should be notified of what is needed for her well-being. Be sure to take clothes that can be washed in very hot water and strong detergent. By swapping out clothes ever week or two you can keep a watch on what is missing ,and check that her name hasn't faded. It is my understanding that insuranñce should pay for all medical including a portion of the rent. Good luck!! Prayers and love for you and family members.
When your mother was placed in the nursing home in the contract that was signed by whomever did it state that an automatic or an automatic is required for placement of your mother? Someone gave the nursing home permission and provided them her account information. Before making and changes check or have an attorney check whether auto withdrawals are required or not. If not how or why isn't the nursing home bills sent directly to you and you pay them yourself with your mother funds. You can sign check using POA your name for your mother's name. Get the nursing home off of the account. If you have to open a new account and move monies, but leave just a enough monies to cover any bills that will come out of her account for 2 to 3 months (medications or doctor bills and for monthly bills to nursing home) and then provide Social Security or any pension new account information for them to deposit to and if not then make the contacts or write the letters for you that way the request won't be questioned. Make sure you provide any pension name, address's and all new banking name, account and routing numbers (just take a deposit slip in with you) and address.
That is a lot of money for clothing, sundries and entertainment supplies. Review the terms of the contract with the nursing home. You might also wish to talk to a lawyer that specializes in elder law.
Patches has 2 threads going. She has not replied to questions asked in the last couple of days. She is talking about her Moms personal needs account where a small amount is taken from Moms SS check for personal needs. This account is taken care of by the NH but they need a signature from the resident or their representative (POA) to withdraw from it. I sent her info on how to handle this. She needs to go to her local Social Service agency and put in a complaint. They oversee PNAs. I am assuming the NH has acquired guardianship which overrides a POA. She has been told that by others too.
Until she responds to her posts, we don't know if she has followed our suggestions.
I had no idea a nursing home could take over guardianship, let alone it overriding POA. That sounds very illegal to me. I would be running to an elder law attorney. RUNNING.
There is a lot of surprise billing in nursing homes and Medicaid's rules vary from state to state. Just wait until she dies and they do the estate recovery law. Anything that goes into probate they can and will seize.
Medicaid is NOT transparent about their spending and recovery costs and it comes as a big surprise after the loved one dies
I would be contacting a certified elder law attorney asap for a consult at least. I'm sure if the attorney asks for receipts they might not only suddenly be able to provide them, but will clean up their act.
A poa only takes over when they are unable to make decisions for themselves. If your mother is cognizant of whats going on and giving them permission to purchase these items then there is probably not much you can do except talk to your mom and explain the situation. But if she is not giving permission or not cognizant the nursing home has a lot of explaining to do. Medicare usually covers the cost of a wheelchair if she is on medicare. I agree you need to get receipts and make sure your mom has all the items listed. That is a awful lot of clothes for someone in a nursing home.
They home should have only a patient's discretionary account In Ohio that is around $50 or so for incidental expenses. The clothing bills are outrageous. Unless your mother is having fun with online or catelog sales that expense stops. If she needs items the home should call you. It is well known that clothing is frequently re-distributed around the nursing home patients. My mother used to routinely spend 300/400 on clothes each month before nursing home stay.. After nursing home -she had no room for that many clothes and I simply bought clothes at thrift store. She rarely had the same clothing at the home anyway. You don't need Aldolpho knits and Pennington Suits,or silk blouses. The wheel chair IF she needed it, it should be covered in part. I am not sure if she was on medicare or medicaid. I fussed because the N.H. rented my mothers wheel chair for 18 months. If she needed it full time, get a doctor's order and get it purchased. My mother had excellent loving care at the N Home BUT they had no access to her money beyond the payments I sent to them each month following their itemized list.
YOU remove their authority to withdraw from her trust and YOU pay the monthly fee for her room and board. Demand an accounting—receipts for the withdrawals OR move her!! They should only charge for her residency which includes her food!!
If they won't give you receipts, take your mother out of that nursing home and find a different nursing home. Also, get the law on the current nursing home!
Move her-- even if they apologize-- trusting crooks will get you back in the same mess- In the mean time-- freeze the bank account. Go with a nice assisted living facility-- shop NOW-- go eat lunch at least three facilities. Good luck.
I'll just add that wheelchairs are usually a prescribed DME and covered by insurance. Even if there's a deductible, it's usually under $100.
My other immediate thoughts are is Mom on Medicaid? Don't you lose all power and money/assets when LO goes on Medicaid?
Clothes and items go "missing" all the time in NH. My friend would buy tons of compression socks for her mom, and then they'd all mysteriously disappear after a week. Staff would be "baffled" and couldn't explain it even though friends mom was bedridden and unable to lose them herself. I'd get an inventory of personal items.
General question about guardianship since someone brought that up: Doesn't the individual or entity have to go to court to gain guardianship? Don't they have to notify or serve papers to the family and esp the POA?
You should get a lawyer involved and to make sure they do not have papers to override your appointment as POA. aand make sure if that POA cover what you think it should. Stat! you need a receipt for all that is done in her behalf that does not apply to her healthcare and living expenses. Wheelchair, baby doll clothes that is not apart of her heathcare or living expenses. A wheelchair can be purchased or obtained through her Medicare or Health Insurance card membership for free. They have a card she can use, so that she can obtain those type items with a $ amount limit. she can even purchase food items. Now that apply's if she has the type of Medicare advantage or other Health insurance. You will need to check that out. However Contact a lawyer on your rights. You need to know when they give her a new medicine that's how serious this is...ACB
what kind of clothes would she need IF you provide them with her own clothes? And all NH have wheelchairs to be used by all residents, so why are they charging you for the wheelchair......is it a one time fee (which even then shouldn't be). I would ask to speak with the administrator or abudsman (?) about these charges. I would think they should be giving you a bill and then you pay that bill, this way you can ask about the items you are being charged for. Check with an Elder attorney also. wishing you luck.
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What is their explanation - how often are you in contact with the NH? Are you having regular care conferences, either in person or virtual? Maybe you should just keep a smaller amount in the trust account and transfer in funds as needed, that way they would need to contact you for any major purchases.
I would also send someone to find out how many clothes are in her room - do numbers match up compared to receipts? There is a huge issue with clothes being lost at facilities. All of her things need labels. Are you close enough to buy what she needs and tell them no more clothes out of the trust? If so, I'd do that.
I'm unclear how the nursing home has access to her trust account in the first place. If you have the POA, then they should be consulting you before making purchases on her behalf, and only do as you direct. It would be different if there were a small account for sundries (toothpaste, diapers if necessary, etc.) but why are they out buying clothes? Is the wheelchair rented?
I would not allow them access to any significant unrestricted funds and would demand receipts immediately.
https://www.cga.ct.gov/PS99/rpt%5Colr%5Chtm/99-R-0025.htm
Stimulus checks can be be gifted.
I would report them to ur State Ombudsman.
Is mom competent?
What trust fund do they have access to?
Generally someone *can* have an account with the NH, for spending, but it is NOT required. If this is the "trust" you are referring to, don't put any funds in it. If mom asks for something or needs something, she or they can request it and you can buy it with her funds.
If mom complains about not having money of her own, perhaps tell her that it isn't safe in the account and remind her that ANYTHING she wants, she can have, she just has to ask you to get it.
If this is some other trust fund, why do they have access to it?
not sure what state she is in or if your mom has capacity to make decisions. That would dictate who and how the spending is done.
Explain to them that there can be NO spending unless it is approved by you in advance, under the grounds that you have to legally maintain a financial record of that account, and can under no circumstances be left out of the loop in a legally binding financial situation that you are responsible for. I'm not an attorney, but am a small business owner, and money is money.
The only possible issue you are going to likely run into here is finding out that there's some loophole that allows these people to access your mom's money and spend it freely as long as they say it's necessary for her care and comfort.
You can verify the cost of most things, question things that appear to be out of line etc, but that's also a slippery slope because you yourself don't want to end up in a position where you are questioning and fighting every little thing your mom needs for her comfort and peace, and here's why.......
When mom's no longer here, none of this will matter to you. A trust fund of a million dollars coming your way, or a negative balance thanks to the nursing homes frivolous spending, the only thing that is going to matter is the way you feel.
If you are like me, you'll only be thinking about how the world all of a sudden feels different, and the things you once thought to be important are now insignificant.
You'll spend a lot of time coming to terms with it, and trying to figure out if you did everything right for mom, so you can say you are at peace with the situation because you DID do everything in the best way possible.
Hard to imagine, but even the value of money changes when your mom leaves this world.
I guess what I'm saying is, do the best you can to resolve the situation, but proceed with caution and make sure you choose your battles carefully and avoid adding any new scars to your soul. Life is hard enough when we deal with these stages of our lives, and the outcomes depend on how we choose and win our battles......Best of luck
Close that account or put the going rate for a haircut right before the appointment. You make the appointment. Thats it. You want a receipt for that too. I would demand receipts for every single item. You can buy her dolls. They dont need to. I would want to see where they are buying the dolls from. Do they have a store there? At the nursing homes I worked at they had several wheel chairs that were parked in a corner, and you would use those for residents. Now with covid I dont know if they want individual ones for each resident. But I'd want to see that too. See if its in her room since she/you paid for it. It can't be down the hall or someone else using it. Has to be in her room with her name on it. No one else using it.
No way she needs that many clothes. Unless thats for a year and I still dont buy that.. Shut that down! If she needs something they can call you. You'll get it. I would go to the home and make sure she has her dolls in her room. And the 800 dollars in clothes. The briefs and bed protectors should be coming out of the monthly 10k for room/board. Its included unless your at some exclusive place.
Tell them you will take care of it. Shut that down now. I dont buy that. Most have clothes from home, and that is good enough. They might need socks or the occasional bra but I cant see that. Shut that down today. Are you in the same state? I know when my dad had money in account it would get spent but my dad was a diabetics mostly non verbal. He wouldn't say lets go to the store. So we stopped that. We took him magazines and items. Funny those were always in his room. If they balk at you closing it too bad. Just do it.
From my experience I would be running to a lawyer and have him read them there is probably a paragraph giving them permission to spend money as they want. She should have enough clothes in her closet that you can take to her take five outfits and night wear. The next time or week you visit swap out the clothes. Be sure to use a permanent marker and put her name on everything .this way you can keep and eye on them you will know what is missing. A lot of clothes are lost in the laundry..they shouldn't need to buy clothes and other things . Take papers either read every word or take to a lawyer for advise of how to stop the nursing home from spending her money. Since you are her POA you should be notified of what is needed for her well-being.
Be sure to take clothes that can be washed in very hot water and strong detergent. By swapping out clothes ever week or two you can keep a watch on what is missing ,and check that her name hasn't faded.
It is my understanding that insuranñce should pay for all medical including a portion of the rent.
Good luck!!
Prayers and love for you and family members.
https://pnhp.org/news/does-your-estate-belong-to-medicaid/
Patches has 2 threads going. She has not replied to questions asked in the last couple of days. She is talking about her Moms personal needs account where a small amount is taken from Moms SS check for personal needs. This account is taken care of by the NH but they need a signature from the resident or their representative (POA) to withdraw from it. I sent her info on how to handle this. She needs to go to her local Social Service agency and put in a complaint. They oversee PNAs. I am assuming the NH has acquired guardianship which overrides a POA. She has been told that by others too.
Until she responds to her posts, we don't know if she has followed our suggestions.
https://www.cga.ct.gov/PS99/rpt%5Colr%5Chtm/99-R-0025.htm
Medicaid is NOT transparent about their spending and recovery costs and it comes as a big surprise after the loved one dies
https://pnhp.org/news/does-your-estate-belong-to-medicaid/
Unless your mother is having fun with online or catelog sales that expense stops.
If she needs items the home should call you. It is well known that clothing is frequently re-distributed around the nursing home patients. My mother used to routinely spend 300/400 on clothes each month before nursing home stay..
After nursing home -she had no room for that many clothes and I simply bought
clothes at thrift store. She rarely had the same clothing at the home anyway. You don't need Aldolpho knits and Pennington Suits,or silk blouses.
The wheel chair IF she needed it, it should be covered in part. I am not sure if
she was on medicare or medicaid. I fussed because the N.H. rented my mothers wheel chair for 18 months. If she needed it full time, get a doctor's order and get it purchased. My mother had excellent loving care at the N Home BUT they had no access to her money beyond the payments I sent to them each month following their itemized list.
JoAnn29: I did see your update of ten hours ago, wherein you state that Patches65 has two threads going.
My other immediate thoughts are is Mom on Medicaid? Don't you lose all power and money/assets when LO goes on Medicaid?
Clothes and items go "missing" all the time in NH. My friend would buy tons of compression socks for her mom, and then they'd all mysteriously disappear after a week. Staff would be "baffled" and couldn't explain it even though friends mom was bedridden and unable to lose them herself. I'd get an inventory of personal items.
General question about guardianship since someone brought that up: Doesn't the individual or entity have to go to court to gain guardianship? Don't they have to notify or serve papers to the family and esp the POA?
Stat! you need a receipt for all that is done in her behalf that does not apply to her healthcare and living expenses. Wheelchair, baby doll clothes that is not apart of her heathcare or living expenses. A wheelchair can be purchased or obtained through her Medicare or Health Insurance card membership for free. They have a card she can use, so that she can obtain those type items with a $ amount limit. she can even purchase food items. Now that apply's if she has the type of Medicare advantage or other Health insurance. You will need to check that out. However Contact a lawyer on your rights. You need to know when they give her a new medicine that's how serious this is...ACB