These are new NYC guidelines because the ER's are overwhelmed in NY. Generally what applies to NYC EMS medical teams also applies to surrounding counties. Is this legal? I know it is morally irresponsible. Can NYC do this terrible unthinkable thing letting the seniors die? Please let your NYS governor and representative know your feelings know has the right to decide who lives or dies.
Doctors and nurses have been determining and prioritizing the treatment of individuals brought into their emergency rooms since the first day their doors opened for treatment. It is “the nature of the beast”.
Sometimes they get it wrong, but most of the time I expect they get it right. I just know that I would hate to be in their shoes - any day of the week. Least of all now - during this epically tragic time in our worlds history.
I’ll bet the things they see, the choices they may have to make during this time will haunt them for the rest of their lives - even knowing that they did the best that they could at the time - under these circumstances.
Im a big film geek. Movies and TV were the only safe place I had during a very difficult childhood. I tell you that so as to know that what I’m about to say next isn’t meant to be flippant or sarcastic...
It is a quote from a favorite movie:
Star Track, The Wrath of Khan
”The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - or the one”.
~ Spock
I realize that is of no comfort when “the few” or “the one” is YOUR loved one. And, I am sorry for that. But it doesn’t make the statement any less true.
Please take care.
You're expecting the impossible right now.....for health care workers to save everyone's life no matter what. Regardless that there aren't enough hospital beds. Or PPEs. Or ventilators. Or human beings present to treat the sick and needy.
In other words, you're asking for a miracle. You can pray for one and hopefully, God will hear your prayer and save ALL of us who won't be able to get the medical care we deserve or expect during this horrible pandemic. Whether we need our heart cared for, or our lungs, or what about premature infants who require special care during this difficult time? Everybody counts equally, and yet everybody will suffer.
While nobody has "the right" to decide who lives or dies, many, many, many thousands of people WILL die over the next X amount of time, whether we like it or not. We can write to our state politicians until we're blue in the face, too, but it's not going to change the unmanageable situation that exists right now. Our politicians are not God's and cannot create hospital beds or supplies or human healthcare workers out of thin air.
And what about THEIR stress levels and anxiety, our poor healthcare staff? Having to care for all of us, without the proper equipment or protective gear for THEMSELVES? While we're carrying on and on about what may or may not happen, THEY are on the front lines laying down THEIR lives for us daily, caring for what HAS happened to tens of thousands of people already. GOD BLESS each one of them and give them the strength to cope.
Try to relax. Call 911 if the need arises, as we all have the option to do, and pray for all of us facing very frightening times all over the world.
Obviously, in these challenging times, you will also have to make the decision about whether to risk infection yourself; because you cannot perform chest compressions (let alone mouth-to-mouth) on a person without exposing yourself to any virus s/he might be carrying.
But that will be totally academic if you don't know what to do anyway. So get the app. Practise the drill on a cushion. Hope you never have to do it for real.
Chances are by the time the *someone* recognizes the person is in dire straits & activates EMS and that *someone* on the other end doesn’t know how to initiate Basic life support/CPR, that unfortunately means the person having the acute cardiac episode will be close to passing/if not dead by the time EMS gets there. Medical professionals are trained in triage and have experience to know when enough CPR is enough in a person that has a h/o, age, physical assessment, etc. That’s what they do.
That’s being realistic. It is what it is.
As someone said not to worry -treatment IS indeed still being provided to heart attack patients in NYC.
Bill Gates concluded 5 yrs ago that this (my) country could not efficiently handle a pandemic. Whose administration was that?
Point being there will be plenty of time to blame and dissect and exude negativity after this unprecedented event is over.
Let’s be positive because we WILL get through this.
I have my USA flag up because we’re all just citizens trying to stay healthy and in this case, stay alive!
Follow the CDC recommendations and stay home.
We’re losing 1000s a day to this virus.
Let’s support the system in place and stay positive.
It’s Spring. Look outside and hope you get to see the next one. I myself am optimistic (today). 3 days ago I was in panic mode but it’s a bumpy ride.
For kids, no school, stay home (let carriers roam); for families, don't go to work, etc. For seniors, go anywhere you please at crack of dawn to shop empty shelves before anyone else. I'm getting the message. Is anyone else?
I totally agree with you that placing blame on each other is not what anyone should be focusing on. The only thing anyone should be focusing on is working together to solve issues.
Thanks for reminding everyone of what is truly relevant. 💗
They have the naval ship docked in New York CIty to deal with people who have heart attacks, strokes, broken bones, that sort of thing. New York is still treating people with heart attacks. Don't worry.
CPR works great on TV. It may work well on younger, healthy people. It does not work quite so well on older people particularly ones with other medical issues.
In order to do CPR correctly there is a VERY good chance several ribs will be broken, the sternum as well. IF the person recovers from the heart attack then there is recovering from broken ribs with the distinct possibility of pneumonia due to decreased lung function. And the great possibility of brain death due to lack of oxygen.
And if this is current policy then the policy is not strictly for seniors. It would be for anyone that is having a heart attack. Heart attacks are not strictly limited to seniors. A bit of info thanks Google..Most are middle age and older. Average age for first attack is 66 for men and 70 for women. Risk climbs after age 45 for men and 55 for women.
And this probably should have been my first comment:
I think the key here is..."if they are UNABLE to revive a patient..." if the paramedics can not revive a patient in the field there is a much lower chance of survival if and when they can revive the patient in the hospital.
Some people have accepted this reality. The 90 year old who refused a vent and told her doctors to use it on someone younger is one.
Some people need to "blame" someone for the disaster or the unlimited resources available to respond to it. So even though the CDC developed a test in record time, testing deficiencies caused the spread. One MSNBC correspondent stated "We squandered months. We knew this was coming from late January and only recently began taking it seriously and now it's an all hands on deck." The CDC knew it was coming in late January just like the rest of the world and 5 weeks later they had a test available. How many "months" are in 5 weeks?
Testing deficiencies did not cause the faster spread. The people returning from foreign travel who were told to self-isolate for 14 days and choose not to comply spread this disease. The man who was feeling ill when he landed in NYC from Italy and still flew to his FL home spread the disease. The college students who took spring break on the beach spread the disease. The father who chose to attend his daughter's recital on day 10 of self-isolation only to find out his day 8 test was positive spread the disease. Human nature has and will continue to spread this awful disease.
Playing the blame game in the middle of a battle is not the way to win the war. Everyone needs to be able to focus on waging the war and not taking time to defend themselves, particularly against total lies.
Since most members of the "news" are more interested in being combative and finding someone to blame for something, I suggest not watching all that much news. I would also suggest watching something like Good Morning America or Fox and Friends which has a very different tone (informational and polite even when challenging the interviewee) than many daily shows.
I am enjoying televisions and books more these days. Streaming Disney+ movies or seasons of good TV shows from Hulu - I hope to be still standing when it has past and I pray you will be too. But until then, my daily life will not be ruled by fear and anger - that's just not a life I'm interested in living.
Anytime we got an award, we earned it. It meant more. Our kids expected it. They saw everybody get a trophy. So weird. That sent a mixed message.
I have all of these trophies that my kids could care less about. They don’t want to clutter their apartments with them. I have them stuck in a closet.
My kids were top level volleyball players but every single kid received a trophy. They did dance and gymnastics.
They competed on the team. Same thing, every kid got a trophy. They loved their activities but they took the trophies for granted.
Life is not fair.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Those who complain NOW that something should have been done BEFORE weren't saying anything BEFORE NOW.
Another adage; Talk is cheap.
Grow old gracefully. We should also have Accept death gracefully.
I am curious.....do we know if any of the countries with socialized health care were better prepared and if they are handling the pandemic better than the US?
on the subject of CPR.....it got my uncles heart started again, after very heroic efforts by the paramedics and ER staff. But his brain was already dead. And the reason I mention this is because the end result was that he was placed on ventilator for 4-5 days. On the news they said that, I believe in NY, they are days away from running out of ventilators. So....this order issued in NY to not revive heart attack patients, I get it. It’s not fair but I get it. They need to save the ventilators for those who have a real chance at survival. When my uncle was placed on one, the hospital knew he really had no chance. He was without oxygen for so long that if he wasn’t brain dead, the brain damage would have been catastrophic. He would have been a vegetable. So for me, this order makes sense and I get it. We need to save our ventilators for those who need them most & who have a fighting chance.
I don’t think too many elderly people who are eager to go through a painful process only to die soon after. They would rather die with dignity.
In fact, I know of one elderly man whose daughter decided to try and prolong her father’s life. He suffered broken ribs and terrible discomfort. Guess how much longer he lived? One stinking hour! Cruel to do, if you ask me.
That's not to say that we shouldn't take precautions. But, unfortunately, that still doesn't protect us as much as it could b/c others will NOT take precautions but insist on noncompliance.
Barb wrote: "It's a profit-driven system and a conservative government ignoring science that has led us here." Thank you for putting this in perspective. As to science, there were warnings long ago:
"The presence of a large reservoir of SARS-CoV-like viruses in horseshoe bats, together with the culture of eating exotic mammals in southern China, is a time bomb. The possibility of the reemergence of SARS and other novel viruses from animals or laboratories and therefore the need for preparedness should not be ignored." Oct., 2007
https://cmr.asm.org/content/20/4/660.full
Politics aside, a LOT of people in my State, in my City, in my borough and in my
neighborhood are going to die. Hoping no one in my family. Instructed DH not to have a heat attack and he assented.
But - it's not the structure, it's the onrush. There's no system in the world could cope with it.
We've just had our second national round of applause 🙄 for the NHS. Of course I love the NHS - it's like Lord Nelson and cricket, instilled in you from birth - but honestly? It brings tears to the eyes in the same sort of way that the general's faithful old charger being led out to inspire the troops would do. You wouldn't necessarily want to ride the poor beast home.
That chap in Ohio seems to have cottoned on pretty quickly and done his state good service. But then he has nothing like the density of population to cope with, or the international travel connections.
Its NOT "socialized medicine" that has led to "death panels" and rationing of care.
It's a profit-driven system and a conservative government ignoring science that has led us here.
I grew up in a family with conservative Republican values. Medicare was going to be the end of western civilization. Then, in 1966, just after Medicare came into existence, grandma broke her hip and was able to go to rehab to learn to walk again. I didn't hear so much about "socialized medicine" after that.
And yes, I’d like to know your answer to CMs question. Do you have a better idea?
If we’ve got to pick and choose who lives, why should a senior be picked over a youngster? have you ever done CPR? Did you know that it’s quite traumatic and often results in broken ribs and severe bruising to the chest? Sorry not sorry but I can honestly say I am not in favor of reviving elders who already have a poor quality of life. Why prolong it and cause them further problems? And do you understand that reviving a senior in NYC and taking them to the hospital is likely a death sentence? They will catch COVID. Hell they could catch pneumonia or the flu on a normal day. We need to keep first responders OUT of the hospital too. We need to keep them safe. We need to keep COVID patients OUT of the hospital so that our health care workers are safe.
FWIW.....when my MIL was told she could get a lung transplant at the age of 68, I didn’t think it was fair. We would have loved for her to live until she was 100, to see her grandchildren graduate high school and get married. The only way to survive pulmonary fibrosis is if you get a lung transplant. When her partner said that the doctors said if she was approved for a transplant, she would go to the top of the waiting list....I didn’t think it was fair to the young people already on list. At 68 she’d lived a good life, she was retired, she has traveled. Spent time with her children and grandchildren. She died way too young but to this day, I cannot see how it would have been fair to let her cut in line and get a set of lungs while people much younger died because they didn’t get new lungs.
I honesty don't understand how anyone could consider their actions irresponsible. These men and women often put their lives on the line to save others. Have you ever done that? And BTW, what's YOUR profession?
No one is "letting seniors die." They're triaging, which has to be done in the situation that we're in now, just as triaging is part of military medical care. These aren't normal times.
If I wrote to Gov. Cuomo, it would be to complement him on the dedication, devotion and strength he's shown in trying to bring NY through a pandemic.
If this is true, I feel terrible for the EMT's who respond...I've known many throughout my career, and they are in the business of saving lives, not standing around doing nothing. As well as the families of the person who passed.
Not easy times for anyone. Sometimes your choices are only bad or worse.
If people would do what they are told and stay put. We may have helped lower the curve by now. The attitude is "won't happen to me". The only time I go out is when I need food. I have a list and go in and come out. Not other people. They are browsing thru the stores. Taking whole families. I was in a convenience store with 6ft Xs on the floor. An employee coming on shift gets herself a soda and stands right next to me while I am paying. This why an announcement comes over the intercom saying to stay 6ft away from each other.