In the process of applying for Medicaid to cover dad’s long-term care. Since they are ‘exempt’ assets, does the house (actually a mobile home) just sit vacant indefinitely and the car stays parked indefinitely? My uncle (dad’s brother) wants to keep the car and use it. Is that advisable? I am very frustrated.
That mobile home I think you’ll find is pretty much low value unless the land it’s on owned outright. Hopefully someone has a POA that allows ability to sell this type of property….. that is something I’d look into asap.
Sticky is that Medicaid fully expects applicants assets to be sold at FMV aka Fair Market Value which for traditional homes is last tax assessor bill & cars are current Blue Book value. But mobile homes tend not to have an easy assessment; their a very depreciated type of property is my understanding. Look to see how his last assessor bill reads.
So do you have a solid on the FMV on both? If not whomever is POA for the family member is saddled with this responsibility. Because it kinda has to be done correctly with all the $ placed in the elders solo bank account as the LTC Medicaid caseworker will fully expect to be able to get at least past 12 months* of their bank statements and expect to see the $ deposited for assets sold and sold at FMV.
Just who is telling you not to sell it? Well they better be prepared to pay all costs on car AND mobile home with ZERO expectation of EVER being reimbursed because as of day of filing of LTC application all the elders $ like their social security check less FL smallish personal needs allowance (I think it’s $50 a mo) all goes as a required copay or Share of Cost (SOC) to the NH every month from here on out. So whomever telling you do not sell, well they better be willing to pay costs on car & on ye olde cat food can of a mobile home for all the years elder in the NH. & that simply not happening is it!?!. Whomever sayin’ this to you, does not understand LTC Medicaid system. It’s the Uncle, isn’t it?
If you’re overwhelmed & car is paid off, you can kinda wait to deal with it if the Uncle will pay for it to be garaged someplace safe and add himself and you & the POA to existing insurance and Uncle pays for repairs and registration as your Dad will have zero $ to do so. But what everyone must realize is ownership on the vehicle needs to continue in Dads name till after Dads death and after whomever in the family will be dealing Dads Estate.
Why?
Because it’s still owned by dad so becomes an asset of his estate subject to a required attempt of recovery of costs paid by LTC Medicaid via MERP. Dealing with MERP can be done as there are exemptions, exclusions, probate that can happen. But to do all this for a car, may be quite the butt rash to deal with for just a car. But this car may be special, it’s your call.
ALSO…. If car becomes too much to deal with so gets sold, say for $18,765. That $ will take him over 2K asset limit for FL LTC Medicaid & will have to do a spend down & reapply. PIA.
Dad cannot gift car as that would mean a penalty that kicks Dad off Medicaid probably 2-2.5 months. Bad idea.
My point is, if elder going to keep allowed assets, it’s got to be for the long haul & into Estate time; 100% family ability to cover costs for possibly years, imo.
RE: trailer, imo going to be a constant issue if lot rent + utilities. If in a subpar place, I’d be worried abt liability. If rented, income has to be reported. If coastal, I’d want it sold before hurricane season. Maybe owner of the trailer park, could do FMV comps and knows of buyer?
If you are Dads POA, you have the authority to do what is needed. Not your Uncle. If things go bad, it lands on your lap, not Uncles.
Good luck on having him understand!
* Technically State can do a 10 yr lookback as to where assets went to. It’s too cumbersome so it's a 5 yr lookback. What States seem to do now is last 1-2 years of all bank statements & any financial transactions (like sale of real property) and 3-4 years prior select months banking. So if any huge $ moves, it will be apparent.
if RV place does eviction and seizure process, it is what it is. In some ways this is best as you having to figure out how to get it uncoupled, utility’s 86’d, get a big truck to move it, etc would be PIA. Fwiw we went thru Katrina, and had friends who bought RVs or 5th wheels to have on their land while rebuilding (not the formaldehyde Katrina loaners) and they were a beast to sell and get rid of afterwards, so having someone else who has a system do this could be best. It was described to me like getting rid of used old cat food cans
Decision made to keep his car, ok then. Just get yourself added onto the insurance & have insurance address changed to your place. Insurance will want its “garaged” to be where it is stored. Hint….If it depreciates enough over time to when he dies to the point of under 10K Edmunds or Blue Book value, probably will be no recovery as it’s below cost benefit to do so.
if he’s now re-hospitalized, that means his billing switches back to Medicare Part A as the main payor and whatever he has for his secondary health insurance. His health insurance pays hospital and its related costs….. don’t fret bills till all that cycles thru insurance process. & it’s his bills not yours. Do what you can to keep him in the hospital and do NOT let anyone talk you into taking him into your home once he’s able to be released. Once he’s ready, the discharge planner at the hospital - if they can’t get family to take them back into a family member’s home - will contact his old NH to see if they will take him back either for rehabilitation (if that’s how he leaves) or readmitted as custodial care. Or discharge planner has to find him a NH that will take him. Hopefully his old NH will take him back, this is something you want to have on your radar…… You might want to touch base with the old NH if you liked it and let them know he’s likely to be in the hospital 2+ weeks. Realize the NH cannot hold his room with his stuff indefinitely open for him as it cannot be billed. So if he has clothing, TV, etc there, call the NH to see what needs to happen with them. Ideally they like him, all his gear gets put into storage till he gets discharged and then he returns. If he returns to his old NH as a rehabilitation patient, its paid by Medicare as rehab is health insurance benefits that pays 100% first 20/21 days then at 50% if he’s progressing. Ideally this is that happens as Medicare day rate pays way waaaaay more than LTC Medicaid custodial care. So NH is happy. And it gives you time to once again deal with his LTC Medicaid application.
AND you’re a good dutiful daughter! None of this is easy…
*Yes, I did remove as much of the important personal belongings as I could. Some stuff remains, but nothing that is make or break at the moment. Most of it is "junk" so to speak that nobody really wants.
*As for eviction, if I surrender the mobile home to the park due to nonpayment of lot rent, I am concerned this will still be interpreted by Medicaid as "gifting" and disqualify dad since they will eventually discover the title was transferred. Regardless, I still feel this is the easiest "out" since he has no intent of returning to it anyway. He is experiencing severe physical limitations, needs long-term care, and the mobile home is in another county 200+ miles away. Plus, it is 46 years old and needs work done.
*Car situation has been taken care of. I am added to insurance, address updated and am able/willing to absorb the related costs to keep it running.
*Dad was in a NH rehab prior to latest hospitalization (this is the third time). He recently returned to the same rehab facility. We both like it there and are grateful they re-admitted him. He does have some Medicare coverage days remaining. Submitted all requested Medicaid documentation last week and hoping he will be in "pending" status very soon.
All states are a little different I would discuss with your Medicaid office.
Me, I would liquidate what I could, and not have to deal with it later.
After dad dies, you as his last POA on filing for Medicaid, will get an estate recovery Notice of Intent from Medicaid or the outside contractor State of Florida uses. That car and RV if he has still held onto them all this time, switch from an exempt asset of his to an nonexempt asset of his estate subject to MERP aka estate recovery however State of FL does this.
To me, to keep a car or mobile home without land attached, doesn’t make sense as they have costs to keep but depreciate significantly in value. It will be a lot of work to deal with MERP after years & years of dealing with and paying for dad’s older car & RV.
IF dad were to for free transfer the title to his brother / your Uncle that’s gifting, which places a transfer penalty on dad’s LTC Medicaid & makes him ineligible but under penalty period terms. Bad idea!
Dad or you as his POA if the POA allows you the authority to do this can sell his car and RV and all - ALL - the $ from the sale is used as a spend down till he’s impoverished then he files his application for FL LTC Medicaid. I think it’s 2K max in non exempt assets for FL.
Medicaid is going to want to see the car & RV sold for close to its Blue Book value with a deposit of that amount going into dad bank account for this money. $ only be spends on his living or care costs. No gifting.
Title transfer stuff all recorded at the courthouse so easy peasy for a caseworker to find out in a few key-strokes. If you are your Dads POA all this falls on you, not on that Uncle if he’s the one that gets your Dad to do this, just sayin’.
if Dad and your Uncle are deliberately being and staying obtuse on all this, you can resign being POA. You have to do things to safeguard yourself…. Like refuse to sign off on any paperwork for dad’s admission in a NH or hospitalization. Do not sign off on anything related to lot rental or utilities payment for that RV. If the Uncle wants it, he signs on everything related to car & RV. Realistically Whomever owns the lot is used to dealing with delinquency and knows how to attach liens and legit file for seizures if Dad doesn’t pay. I’d just make sure to get everything out of it that dad can use at the NH or any personal mementos you want & the sooner the better. Remember once on LTC Medicaid all they get to keep is a smallish personal needs allowance which tends to be $50 or $60 a month for most States. Like for TX it’s $60 a month and that’s all they get to keep if on LTC Medicaid and basically enough for beauty/barber shop and a bit of clothing replacement.
Good luck getting through to family!
When mom was in rehab in August her electric bill was $400 with just one air conditioner (not central) , a fan, and the refrigerator running 24 hours a day. The tax bill is also very high. Other utilities, like cable could be shut off, but no way can I afford to keep mom’s house going.
And she will NOT sell it, if she is down to her last dime. She was told liens would be on it, and she can’t handle that even. Ugh.
so for your mom when she was in for rehab when she had that $400 AC bill still had her regular SS income and whatever else retirement income as usual paid to her. Or she had her savings to draw from. She had $$$ to pay her bills even tho in a NH on rehab for a bit. She was a rehab patient in the NH not a custodial care resident in the NH.
this patient VS. resident is mucho importante!
If you are a custodial care resident in a NH and have filed for LTC Medicaid program to pay for it, that program requires them to have done a spend down to be at impoverishment so at a max of $2000 in savings for most States and also to do a SOC aka a share of cost to be done by the applicant starting the date of the filing of the LTC Medicaid application. The SOC technically & legally is not a “copay” but a “share” but in general it gets referred to as a copay. Let’s call it a copay. The copay is all the residents monthly income less a small personal needs allowance that is set by each State. Average allowance is $50 or $60 and technically is only to be spent on items for their living in the NH, like beauty & barber shoppe, reading materials, cosmetics, clothing replacements.
Say a Dad in TX gets SS of $1876 + another pension of $654 so a total of $2530 so under the TX income max of $2742 and ok for income for LTC Medicaid. TX needs allowance is $60 a mo, so this Dad must pay his NH $2,470 each month as his SOC / copay in order to be in compliance for LTC Medicaid. If this dad kept his home, which he can as it remains an exempt asset for LTC Medicaid for the rest of his lifetime, he has zero-nada-none of his $ to pay a penny on that house still in his name. This Dad has just $60! And he pays $15 every week for the on site barber. All of this dad’s $ spent at the NH.
So his POA or family better be able to and beyond his grave pay all cost on that house in his name as they will have to deal with estate recovery & probate to be able to do the filings after death to eventually transfer the home to the heirs as per dads will. POA will have to pay not just a $400 AC bill, but taxes, insurance, whatever and for an undetermined amount of time as dad does not come with an expiration date. It can be done but for most tends to end up more challenging and complicated that worthwhile, especially if family is at odds.
I’ve been on this forum a long time and SOC / copay requirement is something that POA and family is totally gobsmacked over. It get glossed over by attorneys and Mediciaid imo.
Prayers
You’re Florida right? Well imo It would have to be one of those vintage Airstreams over in Seaside or Rosemary Beach that are redone to now be a tres trendy restaurant or boutique to have an honest to goodness value. If this is anywhere with coastal windflow, that sea salt is rough on vehicles, RV, boats, etc. over a year or two much less 46 years!
I agree with ITRR that you need to let the trailer park take the lead and it’s on them to do whatever path they need to do to “seize” it rather than you as POA do a transfer of title (which raises “gifting” issues). If they seize it, then I bet it’s like a foreclosure action which LTC Medicaid has no ability to enter into what happens. Your dad has a contract with the trailer park as to what they can do & just let it run its course as they can as per that contract.
On another note, Id be somewhat concerned that if it was your grands and then they added on your Dad, then if after grandpa died and the title wasn’t update to reflect only dad & his mom, it will be quite the thicket for you to even get through getting title cleared. So letting them acquire it via eviction and maybe a summary judgment done, it’s all their problem.
Sounds like all clear on Medicare v. LTC Medicaid and the NH likes him & also you. You are eons ahead of most folks in dealing with all this. Fabulous! & do let us know what shakes down on the RV & eligibility and then later on with his car & estate recovery as we do all learn from each other.
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