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Is there a POA in place? That would be the best person to look into what happened and why.
If the grandfather is incompetent now and arguably was when the loan was obtained, maybe ... But if there is no POA, remember that an incompetent person can't appoint one, so you are looking at more legal costs.
However, if the reverse mortgage is undone, no proceeds from the loan can be retained. So have a good look at where the money is. Is the loan balance almost entirely fees right now? Or was cash taken out and spent (or used to pay off a previous loan, or gifted, or "invested" in an annuity, etc.)?
Remember to do a reality check by confirming that the RM fees are substantially larger than the legal costs to get out of paying them.
Alva, we each have different perspectives, and learn from each other. Your post actually triggered my thoughts on actions, and prompted me to respond again.
Had you NOT posted your suggestions, I would not have thought of making the suggestions I did. So, thank you for stimulating my brain and offering insights I missed the first time around!
You are always so kind. I think I may have led the OP in the wrong direction. While often I think to say not to take info from a Forum as Law's Truth, I didn't this time. Bothers me to think I could inadvertently lead someone to make a mistake that could harm them going forward. So glad I tuned back into this one to warn the OP off me! Thanks again for all you do here, GardenArtist.
OP, Alvadeer here. I believe my advice to you was dead WRONG. Don't follow it.It is too late for me to amend or remove it. Were I you I would follow the advice of Garden Artist. Admins, reporting my own comment in hopes you can remove my advice below. I think that the OP should NOT give a heads up to the perpetrators of the Mortgage; it could be a big mistake. If you are able to eliminate my advice on this post, admins, I hope you will do so.
Alva, I don't like to contradict you, but I think there are a few more issues to consider before anyone who's a proxy, or even a relative or friend, should even consider approaching a mortgagee. Asking if it or those involved in issuing and securing the mortgage are aware of someone's dementia is like giving them an open option to find an excuse to cover themselves.
It's incumbent on a mortgagee to do its own due diligence and investigation to the level established by any statute as well as company practices to establish/determine the viability of loaning to a specific individual. I don't have proof but I suspect that some mortgage companies don't do this.
Asking them a leading question would allow them to cover their tracks and back out, w/o going through any governmental review, or anything else that might be required. Then they know how to protect themselves the next time they're caught.
I also have concern about taking any medical documentation to a mortgage company, or anyone outside of the medical field. This might even be a breach of privilege by the proxy, since it's not for a medical, but rather a legal issue.
I would bring them to an attorney; they operate under confidentiality and privilege statutes. I don't know whether a mortgage company does.
A reversal probably would require recording of a discharge of mortgage at the minimum, and possibly a release of liability, but I too would rely on an attorney for this aspect. In addition, I'm sure the Promissory Note would have to be invalidated, since it "evidences" the debt; the mortgage "secures it"...if I remember correctly.
If there are assets beyond the real estate, a UCC-1 may have been filed, securing those non real property assets as well. A discharge of this would also have to be executed and filed. Same with a Security Agreement, if any; it would have be to cancelled and rendered null and void.
An attorney right now. No other answer here. If there is a FPOA that person can go to the Mortgage Co. ask them if they are aware Granddad was demented and unable to sign; take the MD papers to prove this. They MAY claim they didn't know that (how would they really?) and may undo this, but you would require a lawyer to be certain it IS undone. My opinion, start in the Lawyer's office. Have the papers with diagnosis of dementia with you.
To the OP, it is too late to amend my advice above, so I cannot edit or remove it, but after reading Garden Artist above I completely agree with that advice. Please consider following
Agree with advice to get an attorney. He/she would know how to get the mortgage rescinded, as well as identifying the underlying statutes addressing violation and probably how to determine if the mortgagee did exploit your grandfather.
The attorney also could address reversal, if possible, of any advances thus far. And he/she would know the appropriate governmental oversight authority to which the violation should be reported.
AARP follows these kinds of exploitive activities; an attorney notifying AARP might result in the mortgage company's name being publicized in one of AARP's publications.
If you have paperwork dating the diagnosis and it is PRIOR to him signing the reverse mortgage contract you might be able to get him out of it. This is a job for an Elder Care Attorney. (trust me on this..the expense of the lawyer might well be worth it just for this alone) The Elder Care Attorney is probably going to be needed for other paper work anyway so best to get them involved ASAP
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
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APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
If the grandfather is incompetent now and arguably was when the loan was obtained, maybe ... But if there is no POA, remember that an incompetent person can't appoint one, so you are looking at more legal costs.
However, if the reverse mortgage is undone, no proceeds from the loan can be retained. So have a good look at where the money is. Is the loan balance almost entirely fees right now? Or was cash taken out and spent (or used to pay off a previous loan, or gifted, or "invested" in an annuity, etc.)?
Remember to do a reality check by confirming that the RM fees are substantially larger than the legal costs to get out of paying them.
Had you NOT posted your suggestions, I would not have thought of making the suggestions I did. So, thank you for stimulating my brain and offering insights I missed the first time around!
It's incumbent on a mortgagee to do its own due diligence and investigation to the level established by any statute as well as company practices to establish/determine the viability of loaning to a specific individual. I don't have proof but I suspect that some mortgage companies don't do this.
Asking them a leading question would allow them to cover their tracks and back out, w/o going through any governmental review, or anything else that might be required. Then they know how to protect themselves the next time they're caught.
I also have concern about taking any medical documentation to a mortgage company, or anyone outside of the medical field. This might even be a breach of privilege by the proxy, since it's not for a medical, but rather a legal issue.
I would bring them to an attorney; they operate under confidentiality and privilege statutes. I don't know whether a mortgage company does.
A reversal probably would require recording of a discharge of mortgage at the minimum, and possibly a release of liability, but I too would rely on an attorney for this aspect. In addition, I'm sure the Promissory Note would have to be invalidated, since it "evidences" the debt; the mortgage "secures it"...if I remember correctly.
If there are assets beyond the real estate, a UCC-1 may have been filed, securing those non real property assets as well. A discharge of this would also have to be executed and filed. Same with a Security Agreement, if any; it would have be to cancelled and rendered null and void.
The attorney also could address reversal, if possible, of any advances thus far. And he/she would know the appropriate governmental oversight authority to which the violation should be reported.
AARP follows these kinds of exploitive activities; an attorney notifying AARP might result in the mortgage company's name being publicized in one of AARP's publications.
This is a job for an Elder Care Attorney. (trust me on this..the expense of the lawyer might well be worth it just for this alone) The Elder Care Attorney is probably going to be needed for other paper work anyway so best to get them involved ASAP