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Needhelpwithmom, I wish I could detach and not give a sh*t.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
Elaine,

You’re not alone. The only reason I somewhat detached is because my mom is with my brother. Truthfully, she needs to be in a facility. My brother is not well. He is a heart patient. My sister in law works full time shift work. If she were alone, there is no way that I could. Just being honest...when mom was at her house and wouldn’t answer her phone, I would hop in my car and drive over to check on her. Where was she? In the bathroom. She didn’t have a cell then.

This may sound terrible to some but I feel like the deacon that visits the memory care where Lealonnie works who says that he prays for his mom to die so her suffering to end. I think there comes a time when death is a blessing.
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Elaine, you can't care about her more than she cares about herself.

Have you discussed with her doctor the fact that she is not managing her symptoms? Does SHE realize that she has a fib and understand the dangers of not taking meds?

Has the doc ordered a neuropsych exam, which will possibly show her lack of insight and ability to plan?

Folks who are still competent who realize that they are "slipping" are sometimes able to trust their adult children to make critical decisions for them. Others dig their heels in and demand that they have things their way.

The thing is, in my view, is that WE as adult children can only cajole, suggest and point out benefits of care to our parents. If they choose to ignore or mistrust us, I think we have to back off and give them the opportunity to come to the end that they've chosen for themselves.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
Oh, how true! My mother was very stubborn with me. I can relate to the digging in of heals.
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Unfortunately,everyone's hands are tied here- hospital can't keep her if she doesn't need that acute level care, especially with beds at a premium due to the flu. Afib is usually treated with meds, and if she won't take the meds, there's nothing else the doctor can do to treat her. They can't place her if she hasn't been deemed incompetent. Even doing a mini mental in the hospital could lead to false results. If she makes repeated trips to the ER, however, I think the hospitalist will want to discuss the situation - they're usually pretty direct about this.

A relative recently left rehab to live home on her own - mini mental showed she was ok, ambulation looked ok, she's deemed competent so she went home. Within 24 hours, she exhibited signs that there are in fact cognition problems and she's back in rehab. We all knew it wasn't a good idea to go home (time for AL), but she had the right to make the call. We're hoping that now she'll get seen by a neurologist (they're usually a few months out on appointments) quickly.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
Yep! Sad but true.
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Thank you Needhelpwithmom!! That is exactly how I feel!!!! Exactly!!! You hit the nail on the head. If my mother was placed I wouldn’t be sitting here worrying about her!!!! It’s a lot easier to go no contact when you know that person is being cared for by SOMEBODY!!!!!!
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
Yeah, well I guess we would have to walk in your shoes to know exactly how you feel but I suppose that I am thinking about how it would make me feel and that is how I would feel.

I think somehow you have to make peace with an ugly situation but it surely isn’t easy to do. It’s tough!

I admire people who can detach like that. I feel so deeply that it’s really hard for me to detach in certain situations. I suppose it’s a learned skill.
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Exactly Needhelpwithmom!!! She’s scared and I’m scared. Sitting here on pins and needles waiting for the next phone call. I think maybe 90 would be a nice cut off. Anyone over 90 needs to be placed if they can’t do things for themselves even if they are competent.
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Yes it is a viscous cycle of 911 calls and hospital visits. It doesn’t make sense but it’s the law. I was hoping for an answer. What to do for the AFIB symptoms. If she’s living alone, she can’t calm herself down. If she were placed then there would be people around to calm her down. So she calls 911 to calm her down because she is alone and competent.
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Well I get it. I get that she doesn’t want to be on medication. I get that. Well the hospital will be her 2nd home because that is the first thing she does when she has shaking and shortness of breath. She calls 911. They come over and calm her down and ask if she wants to go to the hospital.,If it’s too cold out she says no. If it’s snowing she says no. But if it’s 45 degrees with no snow she says yes, I’ll go.
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AlvaDeer Feb 2020
The side effects from a fib being treated with blood thinners often MUCH worse than anything from A fib. There in fact should be no symptoms if heart rate is kept down and that is easily done with beta blockers. I am 10 years in with a fib, doing just great.
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Lealonnie, thank you for letting me know about your mom with AFIB. I didn’t know anything about it or what they do for it. I just thought AFIB at her age and increase risk of stroke according to the hospital doctor, would change his mind and have her placed. Maybe if he sees her enough times at the hospital he will consider placement. My mother is not a quitter and she’s not giving up.
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Needhelpwithmom, that’s even what the fireman said that they can only do so much because of the laws protecting the elderly. There should be exceptions to the law!!! My mother for example should be the exception to the law.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
It seems like their age alone should be reason enough. It’s like the law allows them to hurt themselves. They aren’t protected by the law. They are harmed by the law.

Some laws should be changed. Just like laws that when elderly people marry their benefits are cut. So people just live together instead of getting married.

Not all laws are good. You know that I live in the south. I love many things about the south, hospitality, food, music, warm weather and so on.

There are some things I detest about the south, public schools are horrible, nursing homes here are rated last too, and there are still Jim Crow laws on our law books. Come on, in 2020 that is absolutely insane! It’s embarrassing to me.

Unless people complain nothing ever changes. It’s hard because I am passive by nature but I vote in every single election to vote certain people in and also to vote certain people out! I vote on what is important to me.

I feel it’s absurd to release your mom back to her home. So now you have to be on pins and needles now waiting for something horrible to happen. Your mom has to be scared too.
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My mother is 93 and has AFIB for decades. I had to take her off blood thinners a while ago b/c she was having severe nose bleeds (and I mean SEVERE to the tune of many trips to the ER for cauterization.) So she DID have a stroke which helped her decline a bit, but nothing too dramatic. That was October of 2018, near as we can figure. She's been fine ever since. AFIB is not necessarily a 'killer' and millions of people suffer from it. She will probably go back and forth to the hospital where THEY can deal with her and keep sending her home. Nothing YOU can do about this Elaine. Again, mom is 'competent' to live alone and to live as she sees fit. And you are allowed to live life as YOU see fit as well, right?
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
Yeah, true. Elaine can live as she sees fit but that is easier said than done. If a parent is in a facility you know someone is there 24/7. If a person is home they are all alone. That’s tough to wrap your head around.

I feel the people who have their parents in a facility have more peace of mind that someone will be there to help. Whereas, people who have parents at home all alone have anxiety about waiting for the other shoe to drop. Sad but true. Their anxiety is normal.
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Needhelpwithmom, I know. It is so sad she was found competent. So basically when the fireman asked me last night what I wanted to do with my mother I said I don’t know. Turn around and ask her. She’s competent, remember?
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
Yeah, because why even bother asking you? Your hands are tied. So frustrating.
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Thank you Needhelpwithmom That is my whole point!!!! Thank you for seeing it!!!! Doesn’t she need a higher level of care since it’s not a panic attack?? It’s not anxiety!!! It’s AFIB which can cause a stroke!!! Maybe if she calls 911 daily and they take her to the hospital daily then maybe it would occur to the doctor she needs to be PLACED!!!
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
If I were you, I would be so annoyed! Of course, we have to accept things that we don’t like because we don’t have a choice but let me tell you, we certainly don’t have to like it! I totally get your frustration. You know what? The doctors, nurses, social workers, etc. would all have the same frustration if it were their mom!

I feel your pain, Elaine!
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Needhelpwithmom, no you are not off base at all. The doctor even told me that left untreated would highly cause a stroke. She will call 912 every time she has AFIB symptoms. Then they ask HER if she wants to go to the hospital. What if she says yes every time??? Is the hospital going to be her 2nd home now? Live part time at the house and live part time in the hospital? Wouldn’t the doctor think she needs a higher level of care?????
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
You would think so. She needs to be in the hospital or a care facility permanently, not going back and forth. That is crazy. Yeah, legally it’s the correct thing to do but at the same time it’s a nightmare.
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Well this is the first time they said AFIB. AFIB is causing all of her symptoms dizziness, shortness of breath, weakness, shaking, heart palpitations. So it’s not just a simple panic attack like the EMTS have told me. Yes, it is her right not to take medicine for it. But the hospital doctor told my doctor that she was stable and competent and couldn’t justify keeping her there or placing her anywhere. So the doctor never said what to do. So she keeps calling 911 and then she calms down and they ask her if she wants to go to the hospital or not. She has a will to live and is not giving up so she will keep calling 911. Is that the answer? To keep calling 911 and HER deciding if she wants to go to the hospital or not?
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They sent her home because it has been found to be competent to determine her own choices as far as medical care is concerned.

Would you have doctors force medications on you when you are old and just want nature to take its course?

Taking blood thinners makes her vulnerable to internal bleeding if she falls. It's a legitimate care choice.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
I understand that completely. I just wish they would have kept her and found placement for her rather than sending her to a two story home that isn’t safe for her. So sad and stressful.
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When my mother was at the hospital, the doctor told me she has Afib which is an irregular heartbeat. They told me it could lead to a stroke. The doctor discussed the pros and cons of a blood thinner but she decided against taking it. They still sent her home anyway. So when I looked up Afib, it says it can cause lightheadedness, shortness of breath, shaking, etc.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
How could they have sent her home? Actually, that is heartless behavior towards your mom and you. To have her doctor tell you that is rubbing insensitivity about the situation in your face. Is that how you feel or am I off base?

It seems like common sense is thrown out of the window, doesn’t it?
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I am grateful for this aging care forum and everyone’s help. I haven’t gone over to her house or called.
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Thank you disgustedtoo for your heartfelt answer. I appreciate it.
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What you have decided to do after the ER/doctor/SW/APS fiasco is perfectly reasonable. It is hard when we know someone needs help and we are willing to help, but they refuse and no one else sees the "big picture." As long as they determine her to be competent, it is about all you can do - going once/week to take the trash, pay bills or whatever seems to be fine. Although others say stop, unless/until someone can ensure changes will happen, at least the trash is going out, not compounding the problem.

As suggested, if you could get a camera in there, without her knowing, you could at least be able to know if she is up and about, reducing your need to worry and if something happens it wouldn't take a week to find out.

Assumption is you have no POA or HIPPA authorization. If you do, I would want her doctors to determine WHY all the panic attacks. She's had several now in a short time. ER is not the place to seek dianosis. Unless you are bleeding profusely, having a heart attack, have broken bones or some other blatantly obvious issue, they aren't going to do much for you. Even if it is one of those, they are only going to stabilize as best they can and refer you elsewhere. If not authorized, can you at least make requests for her doctor to get her fully checked to see what the issue is?

As for why FD not EMT, they have emergency capability too, and if no ambulance/EMT is available, you get FD. If both were tied up, you'd likely get PD.

Hopefully this FD person can get some kind of ball rolling. While it is hard not to react to them telling you it needs to be cleaned, understand it isn't his fault either! He hasn't been part of the issue really (even though he said it was just as bad 8 years ago, he likely has no more authority than you - he could report it, but if no one takes action, his hands are tied too.) I would welcome any help the FD can provide and express my thanks, even if it is after the fact. You NEED someone like this in your camp!

I don't know the details, but the people living across the street from my former house had issues. A friend who is a plumber had been in the house and said it was disgusting. She was on oxygen, but would go to the little entry space to smoke. The place was apparently dirty and cluttered. He had at least one ambulance call. Last I knew, they were forced out and the place was condemned. So, on some level there should be those who CAN intervene, but we know how that goes. This was all in a fairly small town, so if they can do it, anyone can!
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Yes, she called 911 and the fire department showed up and no fire. Just a panic attack. The fireman also said to me “ we were here 8 years ago and this house looked like this”!!!! I should have said “ why didn’t you do something about it back then?” I didn’t say that but I thought of it at work. Her microwave was making a popping noise and wanted them to check it out and put it in the garage. They came and put it in the garage but said there was nothing wrong with the microwave. At the time I said to her AND THEY LET YOU BACK IN THE HOUSE WITH ALL YOUR CLUTTER???? She laughed and said yes. I didn’t leave work that time either. She called all in a panic then. So back then she called the fire department 8 years ago and they never questioned her living habitat.
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Elaine: Whoa - the fire dept came to her house because she was having a panic attack? I missed that. Reading now. She created this MESS and I don't blame you for telling them what you tried to do. Wow. What the heck? You tried to tell people and no one would listen. That is crazy. Good to let them figure out to get in that DISASTER of a house!!
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disgustedtoo Feb 2020
house did not catch fire... mom had panic attack and called 911. FD were just the ones who showed up and is telling elaine the place needs to be cleaned up because it is a hazard.
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I agree with you all!!! Rovana you are spot on. Let them all figure out how to get in that house WITHOUT ME!!!
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Hey everyone!! Thank you so much for your words of comfort!!! I’m at work. I never went over to her house. The fireman will get the ball rolling. He said he would keep in touch. He said my mom didn’t want to go to the hospital because it was too cold out. He asked me if I was going to work and I said yes. She’s competent remember? So I don’t know what happened after that. I suppose they left her there in her pile of rubbish.
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Exactly as Barb has said...........mother is going to continue having panic attacks & breathing problems, etc. The FD will have no other choice but to call APS and get that ball rolling. Sooner or later it will come out that your mother is NOT 'competent' or capable of living on her own in that hoarded house and then she'll be forced to move into AL or SN. It is well documented that you've tried to help and have been PREVENTED from doing so.

Let this play out as it will, Elaine. Stand by and wait, is all you can do
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I believe that the Fire Dept is obliged to call APS in a situation like this.

And the fact that you are no longer covering for your mother is going to expose her vulnerabilities.

She is going to keep having panic attacks and calling 911. Let this play out, Elaine.

You tried to help and she and the system wouldn't let you. You just have to wait for some outside force to intervene. Sounds like that has started.
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When he told me the house needed to be picked up I should have said go ahead and try. See what happens when you try to throw out ONE piece of PAPER!!!!@!!!!!
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I'm not getting involved with this. This is her problem. I don't need to go over there and let them in and be sucked into her friggin drama.
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worriedinCali Feb 2020
That’s spirit Elaine! Take care of yourself and let your mother deal with the chips that fall. You know how she will act when the authorities show up.....so stay strong and stay out of it. You’ve got this!!!
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It will Barb? They will call APS?? I mentioned APS and said I called anonymously and they said they wouldn't do anything as long as there was a path to get in the house. He said there was NO PATH to get in the house!!! None!!! He said they had to push there way in the door and all the junk was up against the door. I said yes. She thinks that by pushing all her stuff in front of the door that it will keep the draft out!!! She just got an insulated garage door put in this past fall!!! I said i;ve tried everything and nobody listens to me. He promised he would get the ball rolling. Can't they get a court order to let somebody in that house?? You know, like a judge when they need a warrant for somebody's arrest? My god I went ballistic when he said somebody needs to clean up this house!!! DUH!!!! I went off on him!! He told me to calm down and he would call the code officer because she has no working smoke detectors but she has a working carbon monoxide detector that works. So he says to me are you going to work tonight?? I said yes, she's competent, remember??? Then he says to me well what should we do with her, I said I don't know, ask her. She's competent, remember. I couldn't help but be snarky. I couldn't help myself because I felt attacked personally by him.
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worriedinCali Feb 2020
What may happen, Elaine, is that they-the fire dept-will call APS on the spot from your moms house. Or they may just make a written report and forward it to APS who HAVE to follow up on it. Firefighters are mandated reporters. APS will enlist the help of the police dept if necessary. A warrant to enter the house may not be necessary, all the police need is probable cause. But if your mom refuses to let APS in then most likely they would have to get a warrant. But if the police show up and there is reason to believe your mom is in danger then they would probably have their “probable cause” and be able to force entry.
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Elaine, this may be a very good thing. The Fire Dept report will get called into APS.
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I have an update!!! The fire department came to my mothers house. I don’t know why they came because usually it’s the ambulance that comes. She was having trouble breathing. Just a panic attack. The fireman gets on the phone with me and tells me somebody has to clean up this house!!! I went ballistic!!! I’ve tried to help her and she won’t let me. She has been at the hospital. I have talked to doctors and social workers and they all tell me nothing can be done because she is competent!!! Don’t tell me!!! I know all of this!! She’s competent according to her doctors!! She can live any way she wants!!! He said he was calling the code officer because the house will go up like a fire cracker!!! I said call him. He said the only thing is she has to be home and has to let them in. I said good luck with that!!! She will lock the door and crawl upstairs and go to bed when you leave the house!!! I don’t know what is going to happen but I said I’m done with all this bull!!! I’m going to work tonight!!!! I can’t help her!! She’s competent remember????
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Sendhelp Feb 2020
Can you let them in?
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