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EN, the woman has NO boundaries.

She will ask and ask and ask...

Have you read Townsend and Cloud's "Boundaries"?
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
I know, right? Who asks to come on someone's vacation with them? How invasive and shitty trying to make us feel guilty about not taking her with? It will have been two months since her husband died by then. No, I havent read that book.
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I echo polarbear's question -- How did the dinner go with the 3 siblings?

(I'm surprised you had her stay overnight...how did THAT go?)
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
It went pretty good, I mainly wanted her to re-establish with the other siblings so she can using them for help, too. She was trying to avoid them and say she didn't want to talk her husband's death. I think she was just doing it to try and lock us into being her sole helpers. She cried a couple times but overall it went well.
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You: I am leaving for a vacation.
Aunt: Can I come?
You: No
Aunt: Why not?
You: Because I need a break from the stress so I can relax.

😀
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
Now that I'm seeing how unhelpful she is to other people in need, it's going to make to keep saying no to her.
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How did dinner go with aunts/uncles?

Please, nip the "Can I tag along on your vacation?" in the bud, asap.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
There's no way in hell she's going on my vacation, I'd rather walk through the everglades trailing chicken guts behind me than take her with.
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OP has now entered the second circle of hell with aunt. Her impetous decison to move aunt to her city will have more ripples than the Atlantic Ocean.

While it is great she keeps redirecting aunt to be self sufficient. The stress of having to continue to do this can also be draining too. And she hasnt even been there a month.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
Yeah, I'm going to implement a new policy of only answering the phone 2x per week from her once she is set up in the new place.
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"I Don't want to think this about her but I'm starting to feel that she's very manipulative."

Oh? Would you say?

Sometimes blithe trust does win the day. Think of the little girl inviting Steve Buscemi to join her dolls' tea party in ConAir - it all turned out fine for her, and his character too.

So who am I to say that if you approach your aunt in the expectation that she will behave like a normally self-reliant and responsible human being it will all go horribly wrong. May you all come out of this well.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
I am surprised at the gall she had at asking to come on our vacation next month, even offered to pay for some of it if we'd take her.
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OP, go back and read your original question. Then think about it. You’ve been rushing about changing things. As they settle down, watch the ‘new normal’.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
She hasn't even bee here 2 weeks.
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I should have a more interesting update in a few hours, she's been trying to avoid all the other siblings in town, probably to make herself more reliant on us. So...I invited 3 of them over to supper to see her!
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polarbear May 2022
I'm a bit confused. You're making supper at your place? And you're inviting your aunt and her 3 sibs to come? Your aunt is now at her own place, right?
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Before you got the apt was she staying with you? Trying to figure out how you would end up having to take her along if she is in her apt. For me, it would be a visit and bye. I would not even tell her I was going anywhere but straight home.

Every time I read about your Aunt I think of mine. Out of 8 she was 7. She passed at the age of 77 and had been a widow 5 years. My Mom was 9 yrs older than her so when my Uncle died Mom was 81. Every year she and Mom would have their mammograms done at the same time. My Mom driving. When Mom lost her license at 83 I called my Aunt to tell her I changed Moms appt to the same time as mine so I could take her. Her answer "I could have driven her". I felt like saying "If so, why were u allowing her all the other times when she had to go out if her way for you. You went right passed her house to get to the Xray place." And, she had Mom picking up her mail at the PO! Again the PO was 2 doors down from the Xray place. Mom had to go clear out of her way to take the mail to my Aunt. Who was not an invalid, she could drive. I told my Mom never to volunteer me to drive her. Have no idea who did after I started driving Mom but it was not me. This is the woman who told my daughter they were in the same line if business. My daughter is an RN, my Aunt an aide who spent the night with a woman "in case" she needed help.

Please, keep to your boundries. Hopefully her siblings can help. You have enough on ur plate. Not sure how you do what you do now.

Keep us updated. Like u stick to the original post. Helps in scrolling back to update myself.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
I'm super interested to see how she acts in front of my aunts and uncle. One stopped by earlier and she started crying saying how much we have done for and much stress she is causing. All true, but she didn't say anything about her husband, isn't that weird? She is more interested in securing a new caregiver than in talking about him. When she does talk about him it's more about everything she did for him than what he did for her. Just seems very off.
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EN, you say you were in the same state, so insurance shouldn't be a problem.

If she is on an Advantage plan, you better check, many of them are COUNTY specific. Some do allow treatment outside of the COUNTY but, it is considered out of network and the bill is not covered at the same percentage.

It is only NOT a problem if she has standard MEDICARE and a SUPPLEMENTAL insurance.

Just a heads up.
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GOOD:
"I am getting better at saying no, "
"she was trying to get me to take her couch shopping...and I said no, "
"She was trying to get us to move some heavy pieces of furniture ... I said no,"
"She was trying to get us to clean / paint her house ... I said no"

BRAVO!!!

BAD:
"she always has to come with us."

Your aunt is relentless in her demands, isn't she? What makes her think she owns your time and labor? What makes her think she can demand/request you to take her shopping, clean and paint her house, move furniture? How outrageous of her. Now, she is tagging along wherever you and your mom go. How crazy is that?

Don't you see it? Her behavior is outrageous. Would your mom expect your cousins to do these things for her? They would say she's out of her mind.
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From an earlier post: "You don't want to get involved, remember?"

Your response:

"I'd say that ship has sailed."

Sailed and sinking.
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OP is now in stage one of hell after moving aunt closer to mom and her. Already aunt is out of control and wants to go wherever mom goes and OP can't set one simple, single boundary and say no, mom and I are doing this together.

Your nightmare has just begun.
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XenaJada May 2022
Auntie is going w OP on her vacation. OP doesn’t know it yet.
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Isthisrealyreal provided a good list of things that will need to happen. Seems like you're already providing help (setting up online banking, taking her couch shopping). Where is it going to end? I can see mission creep already starting to happen here.

It may have been stated in previous posts, but does your aunt drive? If not, then how does she get to all of her medical appts. for her "complex medical needs"? How does she do grocery shopping?

Who has her POA/HCPOA? (Hope it's not you.)

And one more thing -- Isthisrealyreal mentioned that Medicare Advantage plans have networks. Has she moved out of the network? If so, she will either have to get a different plan OR this is her chance to get a Medigap/Supplement plan without medical underwriting.

But, again, none of these are YOUR issues to solve. But is aunt capable of solving them all on her own? If not, then you have done her no favors in moving her to your town.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
She doesn't drive, there is a handicapped accessible bus line in town that she will use for her appointments and transportation. There are several grocery stores that she can order from and have it delivered, we also have door dash. She doesn't have a POA or healthcare proxy. She lived in the same state as us so her health insurance should be fine.

She's very capable mentally, I think all this stuff about being afraid to be alone is just because her partner of 40 years just passed away. I also think it's likely somewhat manipulative so that she can try to keep someone with her constantly. She is on good behavior right now but I would think that eventually her true colors will come out. People can only stay in a state of gratitude for so long. I just popped the news that we are going on an out of state vacation next month so I am sure she's thinking about that right now (no, there is no way she could come with).
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EB, as a social worker, you are trained to help, and it is also in your nature to help. You can't turn your back on someone in need. You help even if you don't want to. I can see that very clearly.

That is why I am so afraid for you. The situation you're in is not a can of worms, as you have been warned by everyone here what you might be in for. Your situation is a QUICKSAND. Your helpful nature will pull you in deeper and deeper until you get swallowed up. No boundaries will work once you get sucked in.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
I know that I am not capable of providing all the assistance that she wants and will likely keep trying to push for as time goes on. My goal is to get her into her own place, hook her up with all the resources she needs, then back away. I don't mind seeing her once a week for coffee or something but that is the max extent of what I can provide. I take care of my mom, have two jobs and am going back to school in two weeks. There simply aren't enough hours in the day to put her in there too.

As I said, she's very capable mentally, I think she's just been thrown for a loop by all of this or she's trying to act more helpless so that we feel obliged to do more for her. She may not want to live alone but millions of seniors do it every day in America and they are fine. I am getting better at saying no, she was trying to get me to take her couch shopping this weekend (my first weekend off in a month) and I said no, it would have be another time. She was trying to get us to move some heavy pieces of furniture and I said no, you'll have to hire someone for that. She was trying to get us to clean / paint her house and I said no, you'll have to hire someone for that. She is the one who is going to be doing all of the adjusting to her new circumstances, not me.
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Just curious - the siblings who live in your town, how have they reacted to the news of her move? Red carpet, crucifix and garlic, tumbleweeds..?
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polarbear May 2022
CM you're funny. :D
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Aunt has been emotional for the last 24 hours, we got the key for the apartment and she's been saying she'll be scared to be alone. She asked me if my mom would stay overnight with her and I just said you'll have to ask her. Then my mom said aunt was asking if someone would stay with her until she falls asleep. She wont actually spend the night there for another week or so. She's been pleasant but with what her kids said about her I cant help but be suspicious of almost every thing she says.

I still dont want to be in this position. I have good memories of her from childhood, I feel bad for her, I'm sorry that she has to live alone but there's no way she can live here.
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sp19690 May 2022
Lol tjis is just the beginning for you in regards to aunt and for mom too. Remember no good deed goes unpunished.
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"I just want to go on vacation, sit in the sun and do nothing but read a book".

Book it.

Provide your Aunt a list of support numbers, meal deliveries, taxi, local Doctor, pharmacist etc then go.

It will give her that extra push to stand - stand tall on her own feet (rather than grow a habit to lean too hard on you).
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Got the lease signed, put the utilities in her name, her bed will be delivered this week. I suppose she needs to get a phone, cable and internet hooked up. Gonna show her how to get her bank account online tomorrow. She wants to look for a couch so we'll do that soon, then there is no reason for her to not staying at her place. I will be very happy to get back to my own life, I just want to go on vacation, sit in the sun and do nothing but read a book.
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Beatty May 2022
You have done very well.
I can almost smell the new boundaries like new drying paint.

Of course Aunt will be scared & nervous about this big life change. She is still grieving too.

But as with the furniture moving, suggesting a therapist to help for emotional support is the way. No reason for you to carry the heavy load of either.
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EN, I think that you are doing quite well with setting boundaries with this whole crew!

You were able to point her towards housing and she's been approved.
You've told her children that no, you are NOT going to be the intermediary.
You've told her that she needs to hire movers; that YOU are not going to empty the house.
You've told her that she will need to order groceries and that you will NOT be taking her to doctor's appointments.

Well done.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
Thank you, I hope once she gets settled and involved with the other siblings, she gets better. She keeps crying but I just don't get very moved by tears. I'm a clinical social worker so I'm used to be people being emotional around me and honestly I'm too tired these days to get too worked up about anything, but I don't feel much of anything right now. We talked about her getting in to see a therapist. I am sure she feels lower than low right now. She's scared about the future.
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EN, it would be a good idea to make it very clear to Auntie that she needs to hire someone to come in and do the actual hands on care.

This could be half a day weekly or one day every two weeks but, she is going to need some assistance and this boundary should be firmly instilled before she moves.

As for her house, check to see if there are any private resale thrift stores within a hundred miles that want everything, they may come just for the stuff.

Or

You can have an estate sale company take everything and give it all to them, just for removal.

Or

You can sell the house to a flipper, as is, you don't get as much but, you can just take what you want and walk away.

Speak with a real estate agent in her area and find out what they think.

She will not be able to actually do the sale, safely, herself. To many predators in the industry, so she will need your help or someone trust worthy to help.

Get the application from the department of transportation for your area. It can take some time to get set up for call-a-ride bus pickup.

Also, do you know what types of doctors she is seeing? Can you get her on a waiting list now or do you plan on the ER and referral route?

What about her insurance? Is it an Advantage plan? They don't cross county lines with coverage.

Does her banking facility have a branch in your town? My dads didn't and he had to travel or pay fees for using someone else's ATM.

Does your Auntie have the money to pay for the move and all the expenses of getting into a new place before her house sells?

These are some of the challenges I have faced with my parents and them relocating.

I found that the world moves faster then they could comprehend and they needed someone to slow things down and back check to ensure they understood what was going on, my parents are/were a decade younger then your Auntie and they needed this type of help.

Just a heads up from someone that has taken on relocation projects with the intention that they would be living independently. My mom is making it, my dad ended up in an AL right away, he had no business living alone and I couldn't be his caregiver.

From everything you are saying, I think I would look into facilities because she is probably going to fail pretty quickly. Maybe not, if she is as wicked as her kids say, she might actually pull it off but, you need strong boundaries with her if she is this wicked.

Sorry for being long winded, your responses made me see that you are facing a bigger challenge then originally thought and she will need more help, in the beginning, then you want to give. Creative solutions time.
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BarbBrooklyn May 2022
NONE of these things is EN's problem.

They are her aunt's problem, or that of her children.
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Just got a message from the apartment and she was approved!
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EN, your aunt's situation - which is a crisis by anyone's definition - does indeed qualify her to need some help.

Only, not necessarily from you. You don't want to get involved, remember?
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
"You don't want to get involved, remember?"

I'd say that ship has sailed.
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Just remember that Aunt owns the house and no-one has POA (at least that’s what I’ve gathered). So Aunt sells the house herself, the mortgage is paid off as part of the sale settlement, and Aunt gets the money. Aunt would have to sign the ‘lawyer’s agreement’ the cousins want, and she has no obligation (or in fact incentive) to do that.

Aunt decides how the house is emptied, who gets hired to do it, and what happens to the unwanted contents. NOT you, although of course I’m sure that you will talk to her about it (and probably do some of it if she asks you to). Make VERY sure that you don’t take over doing this yourself. If you do that, and you have no right to do it, your cousins are going to get their own lawyer and you will be in the swamp with no solid place to stand on.

I know that you hope for the best, over and over again, but be VERY careful not to overstep the mark on this one. You will be in the wrong, the cousins already disagree with how you are helping their ‘murderer mother’, and litigation is only too likely because they now want some money. Get documented in writing, signed by your aunt and a reliable witness, what she is asking and authorising you to do in her name. DON’T decide that this is a way to smooth over the family troubles by letting it all go ahead informally. If you check my profile, you will see that I am a lawyer by original trade, and this is an absolute red flag. Yours, Margaret
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
I told them I am not comfortable being involved in this situation so I am going to remove myself and that their mom will contact them if she is interested in proceeding.
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I contacted the cousins to see if they would get her house ready to sell after aunt and the things she is going to keep are out of it. They must have powwowed and came back with the offer that they would but then they would want 30% of the money, lol. The house is worth maybe 100k on a good day, she owes 40k on it and they want basically want 30k, so after everything she would have maybe 25K? They also want a lawyer to to draw up the agreement. So...I'm guessing this is their way of saying no. 30k is way more than it would cost to hire people to do the work.
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EN, make sure you have your hard hat nearby when the whining from your Aunt starts.

"I can't possibly do that" needs to be ready on your lips. If aunt seems unable to cope on her own, call in Adult Protective Services.
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EN, are you walking into this with your eyes open or are you being played for a fool?

You started by asking how you could make your cousins understand that you couldn't take their mother on.

Scroll forward three weeks, and you're about to move her into an apartment near you and show her the ropes for managing independently. Because, you say, "I agree and have the same concerns but I can't leave her sitting alone in a house in the middle of nowhere by herself."

You can't? Why not? Her four children have no trouble doing that so why do you?

You're signposting her to services and helping her to get organized: well and good. But your thinking is that she is old and in poor health so she deserves this support - then seems to stop right there. So when you find that she can't quite manage communicating with other services or maintaining her apartment or attending appointments or taking care of herself... what then? And this is even *before* you know much about what's inside the can of worms that - whether down to your aunt or not - led to her husband's suicide and her children's disowning her, a woman with whom your own mother has never been on easy, affectionate terms.

Tell me you're wide awake to what you're letting yourself in for and I'll shut up.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
I am sure she is trying to manipulate us some of the time but even just given the facts that her husband killed himself and all the kids cut off contact at once, I think that qualifies her to need some help. She is not going to live with me and I have already told her I wont be taking her to doctor appointments.
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EN, something quite positive you can do is call your local Area Agency on Aging and speak to their social worker about your aunt's situation. She is in need of "case management services". If there is axwaiting list, get her on it.

I trust you've been very clear with your aunt that you have your hands full with your mom and that she needs to rely heavily on the public services that are available to her.

I hate saying no to people but for your own and your mom's sake, aunt is going to have to make it on her own.
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Countrymouse May 2022
I don't think it would make any difference how clear the OP is with her aunt. Doesn't matter if the sign is painted in red letters ten feet high if a person's just going to disregard it.

I think the OP needs to be clear with herself about where to put her own boundaries. At the moment she doesn't seem to have any, or not real ones anyway.
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Dear OP, I think it’s clear that you are determined to go on with this, and to hope for the best. Fair enough, it’s your choice.

Perhaps one thing you could do now, before it has all started, is to decide for yourself what your limits will be, and at what point you may need to stop helping both your mother and your aunt. That’s worth doing while you are still fresh. Having an exit plan if you do reach that stage, is harder. And perhaps pointless, because the situation will have changed when you get there.

I hope for everyone’s sake that it all goes well. Yours, Margaret
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Emotionally,

I too would probably do what your doing. The woman is in her late 80s. Kind of hard to do for yourself at that age. And I agree that no child has to physically care for a parent. But, unless there has been former abuse, a child should at least make sure a parent is safe and fed.

You take advantage of what is out there for Aunt. There are Senior services like busing to Drs and shopping. Call your Office of Aging. Explain Aunts situation and why you have moved her closer. Tell them you are caring for your Mom so you can't fulltime care for Aunt. Ask about aides. Services Aunt can take advantage of. If she sells her house, hire someone to help her. You have done enough moving her closer where she can take advantage of services.
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Beatty May 2022
Me too 👍❤️

Point the Aunt towards services. (You don't need to BE the services).
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